This is a thread for checking up on pages for works that have not been released yet, to make sure that they are not straying into rampant speculation or posting crazy behind the scenes spoilers. You can bring both individual examples or entire pages to attention here.
In extreme cases, any page can be locked, but hopefully that won't be necessary.
(As these pages often are hit with zero-context examples and shoehorning as well, all four - speculation, spoilers, ZCEs, and shoehorning may get addressed simultaneously.)
The policy governing this effort is Creating A Work Page For An Unreleased Work. Cleanup is being tracked using the Unreleased Works sandbox.
All pages for unreleased works should include a %% comment at the top of the page, confirming the policy and linking to this thread and the Administrivia page. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the example provided here, but this provides a template to work with.
%% Speculative troping is not allowed on TV Tropes.
%%
%% We trope what DOES happen in works, not what MIGHT happen or is LIKELY to happen.
%%
%% For unreleased works where all we have to go on is advertising and other supplemental materials, we have some detailed guidelines, which can be found at Administrivia/CreatingAWorkPageForAnUnreleasedWork.
%%
%% NOTE - these rules also mean that unreleased works should only have one page image, and that image should NOT be changed again until the work is released.
%%
%% If you have questions, please consult the Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup thread at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15514631230A64268600
%%
%% Thank you.
%%
Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 10th 2024 at 8:16:52 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The page name was misspelled; it was Sandbox.Watch Dogs Legion (singular) that was cut.
Edited by Albert3105 on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:04:04 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Funny.Watch Dogs Legion is also a thing. It had an image, which the Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work rules say isn't allowed (on top of it being Just a Face and a Caption).
I removed the image. I don't know how we handle examples on moments pages, so they may need looking at.
Edited by Zuxtron on Jun 12th 2019 at 9:36:32 AM
I've noticed a weird behavior on a few different pre-release pages recently, which is people adding trope entries that don't meet the pre-release troping policy with comment tags already in place.
It's one thing if folks want to workshop their example text before making it live, but that doesn't seem to be the intention. It appears to be yet another way that tropers have found to try to bypass the rules against speculative troping while staying (barely) within the letter of the law.
The spirit of the policy is, "Experience the work, then trope it," not "try to guess which tropes apply, then see if you're right after the work comes out."
At least that habit prevents the invalid-until-release examples from being visible to end readers.
Edited by Albert3105 on Jun 12th 2019 at 2:44:02 PM
Lost in Space
I have fundamental problems with people using main articles as a scratchpad by adding pre-commented examples, but at least they aren't making them fully visible. Small steps.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
... What??
Aw man, I missed a troll comment.
Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 12th 2019 at 4:22:39 AM
Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
Industrious Incisors
And with a username like that, I'd bet it was a particularly amusing one.
He demanded to restore the BOTW 2 page... and wrote a swear/condescending word.
With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
I've reinstated a large number of commented-out tropes on the VideoGame.Cyberpunk 2077 page. There are some with only Word of God to go on, which I left alone, but many of the removed tropes can be viewed firsthand in gameplay footage. Let me know if I stepped out of line, but it seemed way overboard.
Edited by urutapu on Jun 12th 2019 at 2:15:46 AM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
You left many of them uncited. The game is not available and not every marketing work has used the same footage (that's why they're different). The examples need to explain where they come from since we don't have the work as a reference.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
I'm currently fixing that up now, thanks.
I feel like the easiest solution to all this would be a Wikipedia-style banner somewhere at the top of bottom of the page introduction stating that "This work has not yet been released, and all the tropes listed here are based on advertisements and pre-release materials."
As a general rule, don't unhide hidden entries without fixing whatever caused them to be hidden. If it's not clear what caused them to be hidden, ask for clarification before unhiding them.
That has been suggested and rejected. That would leave us with a page full of some stuff that applies to the work and other stuff that applies only to the pre-release advertising with no obvious way to tell which is which, resulting in a big mess that someone would need to clean up upon the work's release.
There are detailed guidelines for pre-release work pages linked in a sticky post at the top of this thread. If you haven't already, I'd suggest taking a look.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 12th 2019 at 2:43:50 AM
I don't typically pay too close attention to what happens above the line on works pages, just because there don't seem to be too many guidelines on what can or should be there.
That said, there's been a LOT of Serial Tweaking, sometimes bordering on Edit Warring, on Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order about the character roster and precisely how it's grouped.
Do we need to list the character roster at all? I can't think of another example of a work page where we do.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 12th 2019 at 5:00:14 AM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
It's common for Fighting Games, but it's typically disguised as a character subpage.
Edited by crazysamaritan on Jun 12th 2019 at 8:04:55 AM
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
The only one I can think of is the page for the Super Smash Bros. series as a whole, which lists the fighters from all the games, but the individual work pages for the games themselves don't do this.
Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 12th 2019 at 8:07:57 AM
Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢Still have a lot more questions, since honestly, I am still stumped on fully understanding this policy that I fear I will no longer bother troping soon-to-released works... Or TLDR - I am still confused by what you would consider "speculative" tropes when the tropers can simply provide links to trailers, gameplay footage, screenshots, etc... as evidence or proof.
- With E3 2019 behind us, I still see teased work pages left-and-right being deleted outright, yet some pages get their tropes commented out instead. Plus there's this jargon of works being "grandfathered". What does that suppose to mean in TV Tropes?
- What's the scope of this policy in terms of a timeline or something, does it only apply to future unreleased works from 2019 onwards? Does it also apply retroactively? I asked a few days ago what would happen to unreleased works in the past (or in other words, "cancelled works") such as Scalebound, but that page hasn't been touched since 4 months and I assumed that game is not included for the clean-up scope of this policy.
- I want to ask why the Video Game Remake trope of Final Fantasy VII Remake is commented out from the bullet list of tropes. I genuinely laughed when I saw the edit but forgot to jump to this thread on that day, because of E3 hype (not sure where the appropriate response is in this thread now). Anyway, the work's title obviously has the word "Remake" in it... and it's a video game. Wouldn't it make Video Game Remake a given by default? Or is it because Video Game Remake is already on the lead paragraph of FF7R and that the troper should no longer expand it from the bulleted list?
With those being said, I have been actively troping two unreleased works for the past years. And yeah, you guys may want to perform clean-up on them based on the new policy standards if you will. Thing is, they have some trailers or gameplay footage already so I don't know which would you want to keep. But here are some details I may want to bring up...
- Granblue Fantasy: Relink - First teased on 2016, a trailer even noted it to come on the year 2018. Yet, the project went some sort of Troubled Production to the point where PlatinumGames's development contract ended, and that the title and logo had been changed/updated... A director interview from 2018 stated that the game is in "70% development completed"... Yet, some game journalists and sites still tease development content and notes even last month. I am planning to add a Spoiled by the Merchandise entry since a 2019 Play Station UK magazine featured Granblue Relink and spoiled a plot point about a certain character (the game is a spin-off for Granblue Fantasy, and that spoiled plot point from Relink is still a WMG from the base game. Some fans were freaking out why the magazine left such an answer to a long-running question from the original game)
- Granblue Fantasy Versus - First teased on 2018, is stated to launch this year, had several character trailers too (typical of Fighting Game trailers). And it had a closed beta period via an email sign-up method + some advertising and promotion from known Fighting Game social media personalities. Now, I also asked days ago if closed beta content is okay to be troped or not. I think one answer was that open beta is okay, and closed beta is not, since not everyone can access it... But behold, the closed beta testers streamed the game on Twitch, YouTube and screenshots on Twitter to the point where we now have a lot of gameplay footage to get tropes from. I am planning to add 2½D for Granblue Versus since that game is made with the same 2.5 D engine of Guilty Gear Xrd and Dragon Ball Fighter Z from the same developers... But that may get uncommented out under the policy's assumption that stuff may change from the trailer to the final product.
P.S.: E3 2019 may be behind us now, but Anime Expo 2019 will be on July 5. So expect to see some activity or updates for soon-to-be-released/teased Anime shows, manga and video games like the two Granblue works I mentioned above.
Edited by DanteVin on Jun 14th 2019 at 12:13:13 AM
With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
, but grandfathering allows for pages that existed before the rule to continue to exist because it was allowed when the page was made.
- Three tropes that can be objectively verified.
- Marketing material that represents the work itself.
- An official name for the work.
- An officially announced date that tells us when to expect the work to be released for public access. (Grandfather exceptions allowed)
- Grandfathering in terms of this policy means that if the unreleased work page was created prior to the day Nombretomado posted her policy at Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work, it may not be deleted even if it does not meet certain criteria such as no precise release day.
- Re: Video Game Remake example - yeah, commenting out premise tropes like this is too harsh in my opinion.
- Scalebound: That's a different problem as the game is confirmed cancelled.
Slightly wording addendum; it's not that work pages that are grandfathered are disallowed from being cutlisted. We've agreed by mutual consensus not to cutlist them at this time. They may be cutlisted, and we're choosing not to.
There's not some kind of blanket exemption for "premise tropes," whatever that is. Video Game Remake requires full context, including citations, without speculation. We've discussed this before in this thread, and citing "the premise" is circular reasoning.
The issue with the entry on Final Fantasy VII Remake isn't that I don't think it will apply, it's that as written, it doesn't have enough non-speculative context about how it applies. The entry as written reads:
- Video Game Remake: The game follows the same basic story and characters as the original game, with a completely new graphics engine, gameplay systems, set pieces, and so forth.
We know, from trailers, that it shares some characters and settings with the original, and that it has a new graphics engine and gameplay systems. That's all we know. We don't know how much of the story it covers (at least not without citing Word of God, which is not admissible context), we don't know whether / how much / in what way the story is altered and expanded, etc.
So we need to cite specific plot events, level designs, attacks etc. that occur in both the original and the remake trailers, correct?
Edited by Albert3105 on Jun 13th 2019 at 2:25:58 PM
No. We need the full game in order to see whether it's a beat-for-beat remake or a remake/reboot. Trailers can't tell you if, say, the quests are exactly the same.
The Unknown
x3 Are you actually serious?
This conversation is ludicrous—it's most definitely a remake and that entry is absolutely valid as written. You're being way too anal about this policy.
Edited by Karxrida on Jun 13th 2019 at 1:34:40 AM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Sandbox.Watch Dog Legions has been cut.