Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, ZCE etc.)

...What is that from?

YMMV.Sonic The Hedgehog 2019

• Author's Saving Throw: After the overwhelmingly negative reaction to Sonic's design in the first trailer, the director tweeted to let the fans know that they are listening to criticisms and are making changes, including redesigning Sonic himself.
• Internet Backdraft:
  • The redesign announcement received its own significant backlash. The consensus is that the studio had ample time to adjust the design when the silhouette was revealed and should have thought about making changes then rather than so close to release. Many people pointed out that the animators would basically have to start from scratch and have to accomplish years of work in the span of six months (as no delay of the film was announced), and likely would be working hours upon hours of unpaid overtime in order to make the deadline. The situation mirrors similar crunch situations in the video game industry that have become more and more prevalent around this time.
• Cliché Storm: While it remains to be seen if the final film follows this, part of the backlash to the initial trailer was that it made the film look like a mishmash of cliches that have been done to death and/or poorly received in prior video game movies, origin stories, and Human-Focused Adaptations.

Author's Saving Throw requires it be successful, so it should wait unit it's out to judge. Besides it's apparently getting backlash for not fixing it sooner or seeming too late to really fix. Cliché Storm admits it might not apply to the actual work and sounds more like Tainted by the Preview. Cut?

Can you link to that TRS?

• Author's Saving Throw: Whether it works is one of the subjective elements that makes it YMMV. Admittedly, I'm in favor of making it trivia since it's a factual but external thing that affects the work, but it's fine.
• Cliché Storm: Move to Tainted by the Preview.

I really feel we should wait and see on saving throw. If they make a major design change based on the criticisms, sure but a tweet doesn't feel like enough to do on

For Author's Saving Throw to be Trivia as opposed to audience reaction, that would limit examples to only what Word of God admits was an intentional fix.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 3rd 2019 at 2:10:47 AM

Isn't that what it is anyway?

No, it's currently what fans feel are fixes to their criticisms. If it's supposed to be what they admit are intentional fixes, that not how it's being used.

Author's Saving Throw is not an Audience Reaction. It's about intentional attempts by the author to address fan criticism.

Not all YMMV pages are Audience Reactions. Some are Tropes which have a subjective element to them.

Edited by Zuxtron on May 3rd 2019 at 6:45:24 AM

If its true then why are any cases of these tropes that aren't played straight deleted.

I've seen people delete white a few under the reasoning that all YMMV can't be played with.

I'm not 100% sure on the policy (I only learned that there's a difference between Audience Reactions and YMMV Tropes a few months ago), but I think that they can be played with since they are actual tropes that do get "played", and the ones deleting these examples are mistaken.

Honestly, YMMV pages are pretty confusing. Putting tropes and non-tropes together on the same page just leads to confusion about what is and isn't a trope.

So, I plan to add this example to Once Upon a Time in Hollywood:

• Foregone Conclusion: Since the film takes place in 1969, we already know that the Manson Family will carry out the Tate murders.

Thoughts about this?

I'm not very familiar with that movie, but is there any possibility that it might end up going into Alternate History or Not His Sled territory?

For Author's Saving Throw, I think the deleted examples were do to promising fixes that didn't actually happen, which is why they should wait until the works actual release. And if it's about the creators efforts as opposed to fan reaction, how's it YMMV as opposed to Trivia? Does this need its own thread?

Should I bring this to ATT?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 3rd 2019 at 5:00:26 AM

It's already "Loosely Based On A True Story", at best, because the protagonist is a fictional neighbour. We don't really know how much we will see of the murders, just that they happen during the film.

Audience Reactions says that they are cannot be played with because they are not played to begin with. Exceptions can be made if the reactions are intended, lampshaded due to expecting them, or In-Universe (e.g. Show Within a Show).

Playing With Wiki also says not to play with thigs that are Not a Trope. As for Subjective Tropes... well, the non-Audience Reaction YMMV items still cannot be played with if we can't even objectively say they're there to begin with.

~Ferot_Dreadnaught, ~Brainulator9, and ~Zuxtron: post summarizing revised definition proposal

OK. It looks like that thread decided to expand AST from reversing unpopular story developments to any fixes to the story and the idea to make it a Trivia trope fell through.

While that answers some questions, what about the use of this trope pre-release and unsuccessful examples?

Question about this Author's Saving Throw from YMMV.Kingdom Hearts III:

• Patches 1.04 and 1.05 added in a Critical Mode and New Game Plus mode respectively. The former was heavily demanded by fans due to criticisms lobbied at the game's easy difficulty, while the latter allows players to import all synthesized keyblades into a new game and remove the need to complete minigames.
• Speaking of, Critical Mode in this game is much improved in this game compared to the 3 games before it (BBS, DDD, and 0.2) due to the combat system getting a major overhaul to harken back to II for this game and taking some of the better parts of the systems from the other Osaka games. There are still, unfortunately, a few things that aren't properly balanced, like enemies that can cheap shot you from the back in mob fights or attacks can come seemingly from nowhere because they come from off-screen, which can cause frustration because of the amount of damage you take in the mode, and magic getting the biggest nerf out of everything in the game means magic builds aren't a good choice for the mode compared to the other two, and the game's more floaty combat and stiffer movement than II can also result in some deaths from latency or other things. But, the mode has still provided most everyone who's played it with more of a challenge and satisfaction than the easier modes.

I intend to cut since Critical Mode was Dummied Out so it was planned for later release all along, not an after-the-fact fix. I also believe we've decided ATS only applies to narrative fixes, so anything relating to game mechanics don't count (YMMV.The Legend Of Zelda The Wind Waker has gameplay tweaks that are ATS as they improve the pacing by trimming padding).

I don't see why it should be limited to story fixes. Changing an unpopular gameplay mechanic seems just as valid as changing an unpopular plot point.

But we definitely should limit it to examples where the change has actually been put into effect, not merely planned.

At this point we may as well start a TRS thread for Author's Saving Throw since there seem to be a few problems that need to be fixed.

Edited by Zuxtron on May 4th 2019 at 2:58:22 PM

Maybe the YMMV.Sonic The Hedgehog 2019 page should be locked. The film is getting a lot of negative traction, which means a lot of messy YMMV troping.

From YMMV.The Banana Splits:

• Spiritual Adaptation: Let's face it, the horror reboot is if Five Nights at Freddy's was a more standard Slasher flick.

I'm also in favor of locking Sonic the Movie. The YMMV page is indeed full of complains and speculation.

aside from being obvious speculation, wording something "let's face it" should not happen on the wiki, particularly on a YMMV page where people might disagree completely and therefore not have to "face" anything at all. cut.