On the subject of pre-release work pages

The first page has Marvel, Youtube, Wikipedia, IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, Collider, CBR and Comic Book. There are quite many contenders for the first page, so a 4º one is not that bad.

Ultimate Secret Wars

Going over @Crossover-Enthusiast's effortpost above. Analysis in italics; recommendations in bold:

• Breaking Old Trends: I don't see any reference to the region anywhere in the trailer. Is this in the Nintendo Direct? Suspect
• The Bus Came Back:
  • First bullet point: I'm skeptical; being "put on a bus" in this context most likely refers to being made non-playable, not appearing in a trailer. Therefore "The Bus Came Back" should refer to being made playable again, which is not confirmed yet. Lean toward cut
  • Second and third bullet points: Not only is The Bus Came Back for characters and not mechanics, but there is nothing about gyms in the trailer that I can see. Definite cut
• Console Cameo: Right now this is a de facto work page, despite being in the Advertising namespace. The way this is written implies that the trope is present in the work, but we're supposed to be troping the trailer. This would not fly on a work page. Keep, but reword to make clearer that the cameo took place in a trailer and not the work
• Crystal Landscape: Can you explore a Crystal Landscape by watching a trailer? No, you cannot. A trailer is a passive medium. Keep, but reword to be about the trailer and not the work
• Don't Go Into the Woods: Cut
• Establishing Character Moment: Keep, but reword to be about the trailer.
• Mythology Gag: Keep
• Pointless Band-Aid: Keep, but reword to be about the trailer
• Shout-Out: Keep with the change Crossover-Enthusiast suggests
• Stealth Pun: Do you know that the game will be about working your way up to being champion? Or are you speculating based on previous games and pre-release promotional material? Cut
• Steampunk: Cut

So we've got five entries that are clear misuse / speculation and can't be salvaged, six that are suspect and/or require rewriting to be acceptable, and only one that is valid as-is.

And this is on a page that's already been under intensive scrutiny by this thread, created by this thread, and edited by people on this thread who were specifically looking out for Speculative Troping. It's a mess.

Do you see why I don't think this level of cleanup is worth it versus just locking the thing until the work is actually out?

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 9:34:42 AM

To support that claim, you need to show that the ratio of bad examples to good examples on pages for released works are similar to the same ratio on unreleased works. Assuming this analysis is correct, the ratio of remove:keep is 3:8. That's over 25% misuse (even if I didn't dispute some of the classifications).

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The region name was given in the Direct, as was the presence of gyms.

The Bus Came Back is presumably misuse, but not in the way you're thinking. The only way it can apply is if Put on a Bus applies to Pokemon Let's Go, which I doubt.

EDIT: And once again, you're mis-assuming that the page is intending to trope the trailer and not the work. The page is supposed to trope the work based on what the trailer revealed to be present, which is different from "troping the trailer".

Edited by bwburke94 on Mar 1st 2019 at 12:41:29 PM

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

The Pointless Band-Aid example is already listed on Pokémon: Generation VIII Families, so that would also be a cut.

So... make a thread for "Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup"? I'm willing to do it, I just don't want to jump the gun. But it looks like people are ready for it, since we're practically turning this thread into a cleanup already.

Thread made. I was specifically going to bring up VideoGame.Pokemon Sword And Shield as the first page to look at, but I think people can bring it over from this thread better than I can.

I didn't realize that someone had already made a character page. That should definitely be cut. It's nothing but Speculative Troping based on the trailer, and it doesn't even have the thin excuse of "oh, this page isn't for the work, it's for the trailer."

@bwburke, I don't know how else I'm supposed to explain this to you. You can't trope the work. The work is not out. We don't know what is in the work. The only thing you can trope is the trailer.

This "troping the work based on the what the trailer has revealed" thing that you're talking about is called Speculative Troping and it is specifically disallowed.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:08:39 AM

@High Crate: You actually need to prove that the amount of misuse is higher on an unreleased page than a realsed page which you havent really proven. The problem is you keep strawmaning and using arguments that have never been a such a big problem and not bothering to actually listen to anyone.

Edited by miraculous on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:08:53 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Characters.Pokemon Generation VIII Families is 100% Speculative Troping. The rate of misuse on that page is literally 100%.

Yep. Innocent until proven guilty, for lack of a better term. The burden of proof is on the one claiming that there is a problem to prove that there is, in fact, a problem that needs to be fixed. Again, this is distinct and more extreme than "all pages have problems that we fix as we go."

Bring it up in the project thread. I should note I have huge problems with the Pokemon character pages in general, so I'm not going to be the most objective on the matter.

Edited by Discar on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:12:32 AM

As I said before,

So we've got five entries that are clear misuse / speculation and can't be salvaged, six that are suspect and/or require rewriting to be acceptable, and only one that is valid as-is.

That's RAMPANT misuse, on a page that's already been scrutinized.

Except that you have an extremely broad definition of speculation and are trying to put unreleased works in a very strange box. You insist that the page should be purely about the trailer, except that is not how the page was written. Nobody is writing pages about the trailers, they are writing pages about the works, of which the trailers are the first part.

Not really.

As noted by this review. You've actually created suspect entries to prove your own strawman argument when most are actually decent.

Hell a 3: 8 ratio of misuse : correct use isn't even bad being not even that out of The ordinary for normal pages if you check. The burden of proof is on you which you haven't really proven yet.

Edited by miraculous on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:38:47 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Let's be careful about accusing anyone of strawmanning. Historically, that has just made everyone mad and resulted in more strawmanning.

My issue with cutting the character page outright is what would happen if one of the characters made an appearance in another already released work via Early-Bird Cameo. Do we just ignore the character's existence until they're officially "real".

The Pokémon pages are tricky ones as its supposed to detail them as they appear in all media, not just one unreleased work.

Sorry about that part. I take that part back. Though I still and will continue to not agree with High Crate 's ideas as they haven't really proven any of it.

This is also a good point considering those pages include stuff from every media piece they appear in.

Edited by miraculous on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:50:12 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

The cut request has been declined as no one has attempted clean up, if possible.

I believe Wick Check or How to Do a Wick Check has the relevant information, but... 10% misuse is considered acceptable, and above that is evidence of a problem. Please demonstrate that a released work page suffers from 25%+ misuse.

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Also, I said that I dispute the ratio, but that's what was available. Based on that post, 1/3 of the examples from The Bus Came Back were correct. Based on points made after my post, 0/3 were correct. The ratio is now 4:7 (and we're still ignoring the misuse that brought the page to our attention in the first place because it was cleaned up already). After cleaning, there was a 25%+ misuse.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Wow, why does most of the debate happen while I'm offline?

I already posted at the Cleanup Thread and I think it's a good idea. I'm still not the biggest fan of these pages because I honestly think people should just be mature and wait a little while until 100% verifiable information comes to us about any work, but I guess until there's more evidence of overt misuse on these pages I won't push it too much.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Almost 200 posts since last night. This escalated quickly.

Anyway, to the point. If a trailer is part of the work, why not go with a setup like that:

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Simple. Efficient. (Probably dumb, but given that the argument was going in circles...)

Edited by RoundRobin on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:41:23 PM

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!

Sure, why not? It seems to have worked well on Deadpool 2, although there the promotional material goes after the work.

Edited by Piterpicher on Mar 1st 2019 at 10:03:29 AM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

That could also work.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!