Needs Help (new crowner 2/13/19): Hot Gypsy Woman

Where is it a slur then? I always heard it was a slur in Europe (the UK included), but not America and Canada due to America not having as close a connection with romani.

On the trope itself, what specifically is it about? What makes a character fit? The description implies it's a design-based trope: "The Hot Gypsy Woman has fairly standardized features. She has olive skin, raven-black hair which she wears loose, a low-waisted long skirt with a slit up the side, a low-cut midriff-baring blouse, bare feet, and plenty of jewellery." If a character is romani and has the look, they count.

That's interesting. Personally I'd always assumed it was a slur in America/Canada. Based on casual observation I'd say that Romani make up only a very small proportion of 'gypsies' in the UK, and judging by this thread, the word 'gypsy' appears to be more offensive to Romani people than it is to Irish travellers - which is probably the reason why the word is freely used in left-wing UK newspapers.

In terms of the trope, I think the description should be tweaked to say its where a character is presented as a Lust Object because of the stereotypical traits associated with 'gypsies' (wild personality, revealing clothing, ect). Esmerelda from Disney's Hunchback is what I would call a shinning example of this trope. She's 'fiery', wears a fetishised outfit, and her dancing is clearly meant to be sexy. A lot of the examples on the page appear to be 'attractive gypsy' and they either need more context or should be removed.

Edited by Clanger00 on Jan 27th 2019 at 4:54:38 PM

Well, the relations between Europeans and Roma are... complicated, to put it mildly.

I think that changing the description of Hot Gypsy Woman to reflect that she's a fetishized lust object and not just a Romani woman is a great idea. Performing a thorough cleanup of the examples also sounds pretty good.

Here is a name crowner. If you think the name should not be changed, vote for the current. Feel free to add name suggestions as well.

I'm not European or romani, so I'm not an expert on this, but from what I've seen Americans in general don't tend to understand what "gypsies" refers to. It's just seen as another term for people who travel around, something more similar to a chosen sub-culture or career rather than an ethnicity or culture. That's why you see a lot of North Americans and South Americans throw around the term willy-nilly. Europeans are the ones who have the history against romani (and probably other "gypsies" as well). As the page says, the Americas equivalent would be Spicy Latina.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Jan 27th 2019 at 12:19:01 PM

Right; while I know what Gypsy means, a lot of Americans wouldn't. We don't have the same history with the Romani people as Europe does, so to most Americans, Gypsy isn't a slur and most wouldn't even think of it as a racial or ethnic group (or groups).

The crowner's hooked; I'll add it to the title.

I chose my vote on the basis that titles need to be clear- if not everyone will understand "Romani" as opposed to "Gypsy", it's less clear.

I mean, look, the fact that the average person doesn't consider it a slur doesn't change the fact that it is one? I'm aware that the proposed alternatives might not communicate the trope as effectively as we'd like, but again, I'd argue that the current title doesn't do that either, and I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep a slur in the trope name.

It just feels like, you see people who say "Hey, don't use that word to describe us, it's offensive", and we're saying "Yeah, but it's the only word we have, so we have to use it', which is...very insensitive, and I don't think is an image this site ought to be projecting. Like, we're keeping the title only because it's easier do nothing than to be accommodating to others.

To tell the truth, if it were up to me, and a suitable alternate title couldn't be found, I'd just cut the trope outright. If we want to talk about a negative stereotype, we need to tread with care - if we can't do that, then I don't think we're able to discuss it.

But it's real, valid trope involving a real stereotype, which is pervasive in media. We can't just remove the page because the more understandable title is also more offensive. If there's a better term to describe this group (as Romani is too specific), and it's a recognizable term, I'm all for it- but the fact is that not everyone knows what Romani means and even if they did the trope is broader than that. I hate to sound insensitive, but this is getting a little ridiculous- we're trying to handle this as maturely and fairly as possible, so we need to be fair to everyone, not just those that find the term offensive.

Cutting a page because its title and/or content offends a group of people is, to put it bluntly, the first step to everything going to hell in a handbasket. It's a violation of the freedom of thought and speech and that, above everything, is what must be safeguarded, not someone's feelings.

Some people will have negative opinions about a group of people. Some will outright hate others for X/Y/Z reasons. None of this matters when it comes to tropes. Tropes are an expression of what the (narrative) world is, not what it should be.

You won't change society's views on the Romani people just by removing this one trope. You also won't change hundreds of years of history just by sweeping everything you don't like under the rug. Change will come when people understand why objectifying a group of people is bad. Until then, all we can do is acknowledge the fact that this happened, and that, as a society, we're slowly moving in the right direction.

To be clear, I wouldn’t expect this to be some great stride forward in social progress here, and I really would much rather find a new name for the trope. My point was more that when dealing with sensitive topics like this, we need to show some level of responsibility and mindfulness of how we come across as a site. Not using racial slurs is probably one of the most basic rules of discussing stereotype tropes.

TV Tropes doesn’t exist in a vacuum - we shouldn’t act like it does.

No. It really, REALLY isn't.

Tvtropes is a private site. If they wanted to delete the page, they could. It's not a violation of "free speech".

Either way, no one's suggesting cutting the page. It just needs a rename. Even ignoring the slur, the current name is awful because it makes it seem as if just being attractive is what the trope is about.

Suit yourselves. Still, sanitizing history just because you don't like it doesn't get us anywhere.

Edit: That, however, is beside the point. We're trying to solve a name issue here.

Edited by RoundRobin on Jan 28th 2019 at 6:15:17 PM

No longer using a slur as a trope name isn’t “sanitizing history” any more than removing the word “chinamen” or “ch*nk” would be.

Just because a slur is pervasive in vernacular doesn’t make it excusable.

If you think not latching on to needless history is "sanitizing it", I invite you to go to work in a full set of Imperial Roman Legion armor while exclusively speaking in Latin.

None of the new names are even critical of the trope. It's just to remove an outdated crappy slur. How can you possibly interpret that as "freedom of speech is ending forever"?

In any case, unless there’s a significant push to just cut the trope outright, it’s here to stay.

If we focus on the name itself, I stand by my previous objections - it’s a slur, and it doesn’t do a very good job of communicating the trope anyway.

Not to mention, if vernacular is an issue, just pothole the word g*psy to the Romani useful notes. Make it a learning opportunity.

In the interest of assuming you're ignorant and not concern trolling, as I've been burned by that before, no.

While Irish Travelers have a similar tradition of being itinerant, nomadic people as the Romani, there is no historical or genetic evidence linking them to Roma groups at all. They predominantly speak English and Shelta, a Gaelic variant mostly unique to them as a group. Which means that even if we don't change the (current, awful) name, the trope still wouldn't actually be relevant to the Travellers because the ethnic slur the title refers to is specific to the Romani, being a preconception about their origins that goes at least as far back as the Roman Empire.

Using it as a shorthand for travelling nomad groups is, if anything, just a betrayal of a general ignorance of the difference between the Romani, the Sinti, and indigenous traveller groups like the Irish Travellers.

It does a far better job of communicating the trope than any of the proposed replacement names, all of which are disastrous and will result in a trope having a name that virtually no one will understand.

If we are going to rename this trope on the basis of its offensiveness then are we also going to rename Magical Negro, Mammy, and Greedy Jew? Those names are at least as offensive as the word 'gypsy' (if not worse).

Edited by Clanger00 on Jan 28th 2019 at 6:28:28 PM

Again, my concern is that any replacement word will be misleading. The trope isn't just about the Roma- though the changed phrasing on the page might make it seem that way- and while we should think of how people feel about this issue we also need to think objectively and whether or not the title is Clear, Concise, Witty. Now the current title isn't clear per-say- but the word "gypsy" unfortunately is the most clear term we have to work with unless we're all going to narrow down the trope. The problem is that we don't know if all the examples actually are supposed to be representing the Roma and not another group.

I don't like the idea of having a slur in the title, but if it's the only possible word we can use I don't see a better option looking at the trope from an objective viewpoint. It's not like other tropes where we could replace the slur and still have it be understandable to all readers. I'd like to be respectful, but we also have a criteria to think about.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 28th 2019 at 2:05:02 PM

, What was said above.

PS: Don't put words in my mouth. "Sanitizing history" was about the suggestion to cut the page entirely simply to appease someone's sensibilities, not about changing the name. I'm not opposed to changing the name; I'm opposed to choosing a replacement that doesn't get the point across.

Edited by RoundRobin on Jan 28th 2019 at 9:43:00 PM

To be clear, I don’t think we’re dealing with a singular “someone” here - we’re talking about a slur referring to entire ethnic groups that many have stated to find offensive. We have Romani visit the site, some of whom are Tropers - we even heard from one earlier in this thread. By keeping the title the way it is, aren’t we essentially telling them to that they have to accept that our site will willingly display a hurtful slur in a trope name, and they should just suck it up?

That, I think, is the most pressing issue. In any case, I’d like to echo wisewillow’s proposal to pothole to word “gypsy” to the Romani Useful Notes page.