Hate Sink cleanup

Not to mention, I haven't read HP in a long time, but wasn't Walburga broken up about Regulus's death?

This does not sound like a character to fit in the HS trope in my eyes judging from what I read. So no objections to cutting Walburga.

Edited by Echidna on Mar 20th 2024 at 8:07:05 AM

What about Igor Karkaroff and Walden Macnair? I noticed those 2 were listed by the troper as well but weren't discussed. I think Macnair may qualify since he's explicitly shown to enjoy killing animals (though he enjoys killing humans more, killing animals I feel will make the audience hate him more). He's also often more brutal when compared to other death eaters. Karkaroff I'm unsure, I think he might be too cowardly to be a hate sink. While he does do hateable actions such as cheating for Krum, he ultimately might be too pathetic. When he dies, the reaction is the characters surprised he lived so long and has no emotional reaction.

They're not from a mainline series HP entry (and idk if it's canon) but would Victor Rookwood and/or Ranrok qualify as hate sinks?

I don't recall Macnair being set up as particularly bad? His most major role was in book 3, where he was set up as Buckbeak's executioner, but I'm pretty sure the book treated Malfoy (and his father) as largely responsible for that whole plotline, Macnair was just sorta there. But it's been ages since I read that book, so I might be overlooking something.

And for Karkaroff, yeah, he's ultimately treated as just kind of pathetic and cowardly rather than a really hateable figure.

I'd argue that solely existing to be the person to kill off a beloved animal does make someone a Hate Sink.

Yeah In-Universe it's mentioned that he specifically took the executioner job so he could kill things. He also slams his axe into Hagrid's fence in anger when he is unable to do so. He also gets a psychically painful defeat (though not death since he lives) by being thrown into a wall by Hagrid and knocked out. I think his defeat also helps his Hate Sink status since rather than blasted by a spell or whatever he's specifically given a psychical one.

Like I said, I don't remember book 3 all that well, and I believe that was where he was most prominent, so if you think there's an argument for him I don't have too much more to add as far as counterpoints go.

Meanwhile I looked up Travers and Selwyn and they both seem like pretty generic death eaters. Like, the audience is obviously supposed to dislike the death eaters in general, but I wouldn't say those two in particular are made to garner hatred. Especially with people like Bellatrix and Umbridge in the same book.

Travers and Selwyn aren't even characters so much as names to pad out a roster

Oh yeah those two are basically just "death eater man 1 and 2". I don't think they do anything of note.

From Goodbye Volcano High: I can't feel the above and below trope contradict the statement on the Hate Sink entry.

• Friendly Rivalry: Fang doesn't show outright hostility towards them like Trish and Reed do and admits they are good on a technical level. Trent at one point tries to recruit Fang into their band as well, showing they respect Worm Drama musically on some level too.
• Hate Sink: They're deliberately cocky, sleazy and unpleasant, with Nick belittling Worm Drama's successes by dismissing them as just "kids", while Trent tries to recruit Fang to sing for them for "exposure".
• Jerk with a Heart of Gold: Despite their attitude, they're shown to respect Worm Drama's talents, even if they won't admit it outright. And in the final episode, they attend Worm Drama's concert together, even crying and hugging each other during "Pretty Heroes", showing they're not as bad as they appeared.

I'm not familiar with the game, but yeah, if they're specifically shown to have some positive qualities and the final episode has them acting sympathetically, that doesn't really sound like they're meant to be fully hated.

HateSink.One Piece:

• Despite everything everyone else who is or was on this page has done, many fans consider Saint Jaygarcia Saturn the most despicable character in all of One Piece by a significant margin. Killing a Marine for the crime of looking at him without permission, he's shown to have an utter lack of care for human life whatsoever, believing that Humans Are Insects. In Kuma's flashback, he's shown to have ordered the outright genocide of the entire Buccaneer race simply because Kuma was practicing an Illegal Religion, with Kuma being the only survivor. It gets even worse when it turns out he was the one who caused Ginny’s (and by means of the lineage factor Bonney’s) Sapphire Scales disease by experimenting on Ginny, Sapphire Scales disease being the very Healthcare Motivation which caused Kuma to make a Deal with the Devil and give up his life in the first place. And he proudly recounts all this to Bonney as he slowly breaks her will and spirit before breaking his promise to Kuma and moving in to kill her, which makes Kuma going all Papa Wolf on him all the more satisfying. Then, to add insult to injury, he orders the extermination of the fleeing population of Egghead Island because of the possibility that some of them might have discovered secrets the World Government did not want them to know, and blames Vegapunk for their impending doom. All in all, every reveal about his character simply serves to further prove how despicable he really is, with not a single redeeming quality anywhere to be found.

While Saturn has definitely cemented himself as a cruel, despicable and petty villain, i think he's actually too cool to be a hate sink.

His proper introduction has him revealing his demonic form to everyone, and would've accomplished his mission if Luffy didn't wake up moments later. From then on, while he's definetly been pushed around, he has come back up everytime, and has now since summoned his other compatriots, posing as a big threat to the Straw Hats that, for the moment, have to run away from.

Evil, but not a hate sink, is what i would say.

• "everyone else who is or was on this page"

• "many fans consider"

This example is actually a Complete Monster writeup. For Hate Sink, Saturn is too successful, powerful and scary.

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 26th 2024 at 12:53:56 PM

Cut.

I questioned Yoji Shono being a Hate Sink ages ago, but nobody responded to it. Here's the original entry: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15476140760A75581300&page=213#5306

Shono does not seem he would even count as a HS. I am also getting vibes that only happened because of his actions if anything rather than actual character. So no objections into cutting Shono

From the movie Igor:

• Hate Sink: King Malbert destroyed all the crops in Malaria and created a system where those born with hunchbacks would become a Slave Race and the people of Malaria would create doomsday devices to blackmail the world for money. His actions lead to suffering for everyone in Malaria, and he did this all so he could boost his public image. Once everyone finds this out, he quickly becomes the most hated person in Malaria. Likewise, he serves as the person the audience can hate since he is responsible for all the evil in Malaria.

Not sure we ought to keep it. While what Malbert has done is definitely bad (CM levels actually), we don't know for sure that he was written to be a Hate Sink. He has more of a charismatic Evil is Cool and Laughably Evil vibe (just look at his talk show appearance and the way he humiliates Schaudenfreude by speaking about his pickle making origins). The fact they had somebody like Jay Leno voice him doesn't help his case of being an HS. Sure he was Hated by All after his lies got revealed by Igor, but it's not until near the end that this happens and even EIC villains can be despised in-universe. Doesn't really prove that he was written to be outright despised, even if we're not supposed to approve of his deceit.

So on the topic of Saturn, I personally think he should be considered a Hate Sink since he definitely strikes me as a character who you're MEANT to hate.

Typically with the way One Piece villains are written, they almost always have some sort of core drive or ambition which, although it doesn't necessarily make them any less evil, gives them a level of respectability in the eyes of the audience. Take Crocodile for example. He's obviously a very evil, cruel individual who purposely creates a drought and starts a civil war so that he can achieve more power. He wants to turn Alabasta into his own military state which he will use to conquer the Grand Line (Which is implied to be at least partially motivated by his grudge against Whitebeard). Definitely evil, but he has such grandiose ambitions that I think the vast majority of fans aren't going to find him particularly hateable. Same goes for other villains like Doflamingo. EXTREMELY evil no matter how you look at it, but he also wants to fuel a world war by aiding Kaido for the sole purpose of sticking it to the World Government. You can respect the dedication, if nothing else. And for what it's worth, you can definitely understand HOW he ended up the way he did, even if it doesn't make what he does any less horrible.

The reason why I bring this up is because none of this applies to Saturn. He has no grandiose ambition or drive other than maintaining the World Government's horrible regime. The closest thing he really has to a goal is terrorizing Kuma and his family because Kuma said he wanted to be like Nika 38 years ago. He has no reason for being this way, or at least none that the audience is made privy to. With most other villains in One Piece, regardless of how evil they are, you can usually at least somewhat relate to the desire that's pushing them to commit their villainy. You're not meant to sympathize with them most of the time, but you can understand them. But in that regard Saturn is like a wall of petty malice who goes to these absurd lengths to make this one innocent family suffer for the most incomprehensibly petty reasons imaginable.

While there are definitely other evil villains in One Piece, I would argue that Saturn should be considered a Hate Sink because his motivations are just so... nothing. He quite literally has power over the entire world, yet he chooses to hyperfixate on this ONE family because Kuma said something that pissed him off decades ago. It's Reverse Flash levels of absurd pettiness.

And for what it's worth, I really wouldn't say Saturn is THAT competent. He's not weak by any means, but he's definitely been taking a lot of Ls this arc. Not to go full powerscaler brainrot here, but I think the main reason he's a threat is because of his regeneration. If not for that he would have been killed a long time ago. And given the way the arc is set up, I definitely expect the story to reveal some achilles heel that allows the Strawhats to get past the regen by the time the arc is over (I could be wrong, but still). Fights aside though, Saturn has definitely taken some Ls that I think are kind of undeniable.

• He didn't notice that Vegapunk subverted his demands to create a self-destruct command on Kuma.

• He didn't notice that Vegapunk created a hidden protocol with the Pacifistas that allowed Bonney to override the Elders' demands.

• He didn't notice that Vegapunk set up a dead-man's switch that would broadcast the World Government's secrets to the entire world in case the World Government tried to silence him.

He's not a pushover, but I also wouldn't really say he's done anything cool enough to give him any degree of respectability like other villains in One Piece.

I won't deny that Saturn has a killer character design because, like, he obviously does. But that aside, Saturn definitely comes across as a character who you're MEANT to hate.

(I did not mean to type that much lmao)

I'll paraphrase what I've said last time, but villains meant to be hatable and unrelatable is the default status. Maybe it's me personally misreading Hate Sink, but I consider having strength to back up their villainy as Evil Virtues that would lean to Evil Is Cool side.

Saturn isn't just a nobody who killed a bunch of people for personal gain and unable to defend himself. Saturn is a main representative of an Evil Regine with the authority to do as he pleases and can enforce it personally. Also, he's a literal monster with Wrong Context Magic, so he surely has the sense of grandiose.

This is more of me poking at Hate Sink criteria, which we always had problems with. I'm willing to reconsider after the arc finishes because as mentioned above, Saturn could be talking more Ls despite his terrifying debut.

Honestly? The arc doesn't seem for them to be ending up with him defeated as of now.

He alongside the other five elders regenerate from their wounds and are giving the Straw Hats enough panic for them wanting to leave as soon as they can. They still seem to be a credible threat, and Saturn is with them.

Hateable for sure, but i would advocate for him not being as much of a Hate Sink, for now. Maybe he gets humiliated later of the story, but as of this arc, not the case.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Apr 6th 2024 at 12:57:24 PM

The thing with Saturn though is that, despite his position as one of the World Government's top authorities, he REALLY got needlessly personal with Kuma and Bonney. It's mentioned in the Hate Sink entry that it applies more to spiteful, petty types of evil, and I would say that Saturn fits the bill. Guy was on some Reverse Flash levels of petty.

Though on the topic of whether Saturn is defeated this arc or not, the way I see it is that his character is intrinsically tied to Kuma and Bonney at the moment. Since this arc has more or less been focused on those two, I think it would make sense for Saturn to go down this arc. Granted, that depends a lot on what Oda plans to do with them going forward and on whether they're going be mainstays.

So what is the consensus? Anyone else wanna drop their opinion on this?

bump.

Gonna say Saturn isn’t Hate Sink. Guy is truly horrible, but he is way to cool to truly be this.

Honestly? I think this is enough for the entry on his character page to be cut.