The trope itself is a complaint. A Vanilla anything is a complaint, it means plain uninteresting, write it off as a con, etc. The only way the character works is via Self-Insert or the fact that its point to be vanilla as every one around them are the interesting ones.
Really the only way to make this non-complainy would be to cut the trope.
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Most use of it as a complaint overlaps with Flat Character, but this trope isn't necessarily this. The VP could be a non-bland character who's only bland compared to others. And there's enough non-complaint uses to show it's valid if something is done to fix potential complaining.
If VP is complaint sounding, how about "Baseline Protagonist" or some other renamed? Is this concept covered by other tropes such that there's no need for VP?
Even 'baseline' sound generic and generic is bad. Its never going to stop getting complaints cause the trope is that.
No, the other one.
"Vanilla" is not a complaint. It's just something basic and inoffensive to which everything else is compared to. It's neutral.
Complaints are what people write about the trope.
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So do you think making it a non-YMMV (removing the audience reaction part) would eliminate incentive to misuse it? If not any other ideas ?
edited 22nd Jun '18 12:03:58 AM by Ferot_Dreadnaught
I don't see how you can make it non-ymmv, everyone will always at least some aspect of a character interesting.
The only way I see that working is if they deliberately invoke it in universe and make a point to be The Generic Guy or in genres where it is invoked such as Harem Genre or Magical Girlfriend series.
edited 22nd Jun '18 6:05:28 AM by Memers
No, the other one.
The way the description is written, it's not an Audience Reaction. It feels more like YMMV because the line of where a protagonist crosses the line can be a bit fuzzy.
Whether people find an aspect of the character interesting or not is completely irrelevant to the trope. The character is simpler or more ordinary than other characters to serve as a contrast to them, and make them stand out more.
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So any reason to keep it YMMV as opposed to making it non?
And if Vanilla is still bringing negative association, any other names that would convey this trope?
Since things are slow here, should I just remove or rework complaints and see what that leaves us?
No, the other one.
That's an idea.
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MLM of color
The trope was originally named Designated Protagonist Syndrome, not sure why it changed.
Because it sounded negative enough it attracted misuse as complaining. The same complaining/misuse that's still prevalent enough to warrant this TRS.
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The question I'm having is whether the trope was adequately cleaned. Like, is the current problem of complaining a hold over from before or is this new complaining?
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The point of this cleanup is that the rename apparently did not remove enough negative association to stop the misuse. We're open to ideas how to fix that.
Removing clear, easy to zap misuse reduced it from 280 to 233 wicks. If it is being used as a strike against a character, should it be removed? If so than it should stop being a YMMV trope.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 2nd 2018 at 6:01:44 AM
Blapper of Water
My point is that the name may not be the issue, such as in the event that the older clean up effort didn't get all the misuse. Lots of clean up projects die... Was that one completed?
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
I don't know if or to what degree cleanup followed through afterward.
After looking over the examples, most are characters getting overshadowed by less plain characters. Is that worth troping? This point is covered by Flat Character and Overshadowed by Awesome, which seems like just another outlet for complaining, and both are non-YMMV.
To fix this, I propose making it non-YMMV (the intended use of a plain character that makes others stand out more seems objective enough), which would give an excuse to move the uses to where complaining is better restrained and zap any misuses (any that don't explain there relationship to other character or subject to debate). Other ideas for a fix?
I'm not sure how making it non-YMMV will curb complaining. Isn't the point of YMMV pages in part to siphon all the fan reaction unhappiness away from the main page? Plus, is there anything in this proposed trope that couldn't be replaced with Flat Character, Supporting Protagonist, Overshadowed by Awesome, Stock Light-Novel Hero, Featureless Protagonist, or Ridiculously Average Guy?
If a cleanup doesn't work, maybe move it to Darth Wiki?
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There is a trope here however it’s always going to be flame bait. Some leads are created simply to be normal, usually as a Self Insert lead, then stuck with a cast full of crazy far more interesting and often fantastical people.
It’s the stock lead of a Magical Girlfriend or Harem Genre genres. Trope Codified by Bewitched
However people can’t help to see that as a bad thing as they want their leads to be Alpha Heroes briming with all the bells and whistles and couldn’t care less about the rest of the cast
Edited by Memers on Jul 4th 2018 at 8:02:53 AM
There's enough correct, non-complaining uses to show it's a workable trope, and definitely not Darth.
Those trope are not widely misused, that's why I think making it non-YMMV would fix it. It's the misconception that YMMV means complaining (it also includes positive audience reactions) that's causing the misuse as a compliant. What can be done to make the correct use of this trope clearer?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 4th 2018 at 3:57:28 AM
My point is I don't get the point of having an objective version of this trope when we have all those other tropes that could fit instead, which are all more specific.
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No on cutting.
If anything just mark it as potential flamebait. Heck I think the original name actually got the point of the trope across more, maybe restore it or rename if anyone has anything better?
The intended use of this trope is different enough from the other tropes:
- Flat Character / Featureless Protagonist / Ridiculously Average Guy: they can have plenty of character but others simply have more.
- Overshadowed by Awesome: that applies to deeds, not personality, and is exactly the point it crosses into complaining about characters blandness.
- Stock Light-Novel Hero: limited to light novels, this is something bigger.
- Supporting Protagonist: more about deeds than personally.
There's too much non-complaining for Darth, but if it's beyond fixing I'd say cut.
Should I keep removing any example of this that used as a complaint or arguably so we can see what's worth salvaging? Ideas for an alternate name that better identifies the intended use?
'Too much non-complaining' does not lead to 'cut'...
Vanilla Protagonist was renamed from "Designated Protagonist Syndrome" because it was misused for complaining about bland characters. However, many examples outright say they are used as complains against said characters, so it it looks like it didn't take. Out of 280 wicks:
50% (25) are complaining such that theres no reason not to cut them, 28% (14) are correct, and 22% (11) are suspect or correct but need complaining and misused edited out. Thats nearly three-quarters of examples having some form of the misuse it was renamed in an attempt to remove.
I think the intended use (a bland, generic character used as a foil for more interesting ones) is objective enough to be non-YMMV, and any time it's used as fans feel they're this is used as complaining. I say we make this non-YMMV, which would eliminate the attribute that's used as complaining and give an excuse to remove or fix misuse.
edited 19th Jun '18 3:40:05 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught