Trope Pantheons: Reworking the Persona rules.

I don't care if it's a double post. this is not a main discussion thread.

@Hotman and Camilla: Remember to read the bottom post last page and take those into account before replying to this.

Okay. With the new rules, most are removed, but some remain.

Here are the ones I'm still arguing for.

Princess Luna: I used this as a reasoning. Looks a lot like…oh. Making peace means illegible.
Black Mage: I don't think Black Mage ever actually accepted his other self. But…take a look here, at the Castle of Ordeals. Actually, given who he is. I think he's illegible
Jaden: I think he still qualifies.
Martin Walker: Remove him? Some versions don't come to terms with what they did.
HeartCatch Precures: I haven't actually watched the series, but I saw the Mirage Pretty Cure as counting as Enemy Within in the Characters page. So they still qualify.
Knight Gundam: Haven't watched the series, so I don't know.
Ness: His trip to Magicant features Ness's NIghtmare, which I think qualifies.
Plague Knight: I think he still qualifies.
Gentaro: This is up to Camilla.
Willow Rosenberg: Haven't watched Buffy, so I'm not sure.
The Panda King: I…think you can remove this?
The Human Child: This video got me inspired. But maybe they don't fit since Chara's a different person entirely.
Megamind: A sequel features him fighting an AI version of his old self, pre-Heel–Face Turn, so I figured it technically qualified.
Iji: A trip can still be possible, but no Persona with it. I figured she'd go because of the arguments that she's not actually a pacifist concerned her (in-game, she can end up being very technical about it), which is her reason for ascension (she used to represent Pacifist Run). I figured that deep down maybe she knew that, but I thought it might take a Shadow to call her out for her hypocrisy and to break her "reasoning" down. And then after this, she would attempt to be better from now on, and be truer to what a pacifist really is.
Nanako: In reality, a trip to the TV World wasn't even in the initial plan for the Tales of Life Episode 7: Shattered Illusion. All it was supposed to be is that The Masquerade put over her (i.e. keep Personas secret) gets broken, she gets mad at Yu for hiding it from her and runs off, and then some other things would happen before they eventually make up. Camilla was the one who granted her Persona (given this turmoil conflicting with the love she has for her Big Bro and his friends), and I let her (Camilla).
Fighter: I figure he would somehow make it despite this restriction.
Souji Mitsuka: Ehh…
Max Caulfield: She technically faced herself at Episode 5, but the confrontation was interrupted by Chloe. I think she fits the new criteria you've imposed, Hotman.
The Winchesters: With all the crap they've been through? They'd have so many issues. Is it really okay to remove them?
Scott Pilgrim: I don't know, but I know Nega-Scott is a character.
Shield Knight: Umm…read her profile.

EDIT: Actually, I want another compromise. Those who take a trip there get a card as a memento, and get some extra magical defenses (with resistances and weaknesses) as if they have a Persona, BUT they cannot summon one if they don't end up earning one, and those defenses only work within special areas such as the TV World, Dark Hour, the Metaverse, and whatever's coming for any Persona 6.

Now for the Potentials we had. The new criteria you've set up ironically might make them eligible now.

• Puella Magi: No. For same reasons as Sayaka.
• Murasaki: Maybe no.
• Hikaru Shidou: Did she make peace with her? I don't think so.
• Korra: Too OP? Maybe no.
• Solid Snake: Maybe?
• Riku: Too OP. No.
• Sora: Too OP. No.
• Toa Nuva: T Hey may have beaten the Shadow Toa, but I don't think they've come to terms with them.
• Turaga of Metru Nui: Was going to for some extra powers, but with the new rules, no.
• Cloud Strife: KH 2!Sephiroth seemed very Shadow-esque. But I think FF 7!Cloud has moved on. So prolly no.
• Mane Cast^* and Angel Bunny: Can probably still take a trip there, to come to terms with what they experienced in Muse Hysteria, Friendship Asylum, and so on, etc.
• Piccolo: No.
• Ranma: No.
• Reinforce Eins: Too OP. No.
• Luke Skywalker: He did fail that trial at the cave… But is he too strong?
• The Doctor: Too OP. No.
• Soul Evans: I don't think he came to terms with it in the anime. But
• Simba: That "Shadow" he faced was actually what remained of Scar's Heartless, and he has
• Kairi: I think she's content right now with just visiting Naminé down in the TV World.
• Jane Doe: Gimmick. No.
• Tavish DeGroot: Gimmick. No.
• Dell Conagher: Gimmick. No.
• Mr. Mundy: Gimmick. No.
• Homura's Crimson Squad: "While the Scarlet Selves are not really Shadows, their mental assault they tried to use on them make them very similar to such." Does this make them fit, or no?
• Milla: No. An alt form caused by outside factors probably doesn't count, right?
• J'onn: Too powerful?
• Luigi: Alternate identities don't work, do they? So no?
• Grant Da Nasty: I don't know.
• Vincent Brooks: …he might actually qualify under the new rules. He never really made peace with it.
• Guts: Hmm…too powerful?
• Kara Zor-El/Supergirl: Hmm…too powerful? I'm pretty sure she's not on the same level as her cousin Kal-El/Superman.
• Kagami Hiiragi: No.
• Jade Chan: …Maybe? Or no?
• Leona Heidern: No.
• Ryu: Maybe?
• Cut Man: No.
• Sonic the Hedgehog: Maybe…?
• Shinji Ikari: Until we have a 4th Rebuild of Evangelion movie. No.
• Superman: Too OP. No.
• Tucker Foley: He can fit under these new rules.
• Aqua: Too OP. No.
• Isaac: Unclear. Maybe?
• Victor Stone/Cyborg: Maybe?
• Thief: No.
• Philip J. Fry: I think so.
• Steve Smith: Probably no due to what Steve-arino wants to do; kill Steve.
• Van Hohenheim: Umm…Check this out
• Rei from Persona Q: I think she fits.
• Lucy: Too OP. No.

Okay, I think I'd still like to have the following with a TV World Trip (but I'm okay with these not being able to summon a Persona):

• The Martin Walkers that didn't survive the end of their game.
• Iji (to update identity from 1.6 to 1.7. Reason: look back into what she defines as pacifism)
• Tomoyo (reason: feelings of being powerless in the wake of everything else in the Pantheon (as well as the secret she keeps from Sakura even in canon), I thought it would all come to a head).
• Shield Knight (if you're adamant)
• Mane Cast (plus Angel) (reason: to come to terms with what they experienced in Muse Hysteria, Friendship Asylum, etc.)

edited 25th May '18 11:26:38 PM by nightelf37

I guess on Murasaki, the reason why I added her there is due of this scenario where she has a very Shadow Self-like inner encounter with herself. The twist is that her accepting her inner thoughts is her trying to act by those thoughts until someone stops her. Whenever or not this can work under new rules is beyond me.

As for the Crimson Squad, the Scarlet versions of them are Evil Knockoff with the main strategy of Break Them by Talking by saying that they're not being true to themselves. Their response to them is "Cork it, I am way better than how I used to be".

Crap, this made me think of Kancolle deities, even though it would be better not to pile more stuff in.

@Nightelf: No, I haven't seen a Let's Play of Persona 5.

That was a poor choice of words on my part. I'll rephrase it more clearly: Have the Phantom Thieves set a trial of skills to accomodate for the rules requiring a case-by-case basis. If they pass, they get to go to WITH The Phantom Thieves, then have three members aid the client in a run through a Personal Palace.

Does that sound good with you?

edited 3rd Jun '18 6:20:22 PM by HotmanX32

Here's what I think, Hotman.

0. Whose Personal Palace, though? Or do you mean like just with Futaba?

1. Okay. Trial run. I think that can work on the story we're currently working on.

What is the story? Basically, someone has managed to steal the app, and the Phantoms have to chase them down. But after all is said and done, just returning the app isn't possible, so that's where the group starts their trial run, but perhaps minus the skill evaluation part due to them threatening to spread the app to the White Hats (which they don't want to and because they're among the good guys). As for why the app was stolen? Well, Just Think of the Potential! the Meta-Nav has. The story will cover more of their intentions. The link to the draft can be found in my Sandbox 3.

3. So what are the case-by-case basis rules you thought of?

4. Basically, somewhat like a TV World trip, but with the Phantoms screening who can come with. Unfortunately, we only have ONE case of a Personal Palace in canon, so I don't think we have enough samples to make a good one.

5. Also check what I said on the top post on this page.

edited 4th Jun '18 1:14:25 AM by nightelf37

....Where is point 2? You could use more organization in your sentences.

0. Any clients

1.Agreed.

3. By the Rules which we agreed on between us, Safind, and Camilla.

4.I thought there were more Palaces in canon.... This is lost on me.

5. Fair point.

0. Clients only? We've only seen one instance of that.

I forgot to update the list numbers, okay?

3. The rest were Targets. (Kamoshida, Madarame, Kaneshiro, CEO Okumura [Haru's father], Sae Niijima, Shido).

Here are some let's plays of Persona 5 so you can get caught up. Just choose one. I never played the game, so this was how I got to know the needed finer details.

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxlbRCkz8UBDqqNCHndgyhYdQOyPTFlOF

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOdDlDt7wGxeZ5rtDp304cxc9jKCD2CRS

I know it's harrowing, but you can always play them at a faster speed and skip some stuff once you know what's worth listening to.

edited 4th Jun '18 9:35:21 AM by nightelf37

I didn't need an entire Let's Play, but thank you nonetheless.

Everything else was the information I needed.

0. Shit... What next?

3. And this is the part I realize you may be right about the Phantom Thieves being useless.

edited 4th Jun '18 2:21:54 PM by HotmanX32

Everything else?

Regarding that "useless" bit, Camilla and I have been nursing the idea of an Uprising story reflecting our arguments in this thread, but of course it would eventually (hopefully) end with a compromise that can satisfy the Phantoms.

Definitely will be working on that with nightelf when I'm not pounding away on a keyboard for PAG with safind.

I've been thinking. Maybe the Persona-restricting rules don't need to be that strict. If they're limited into certain domains, not only would it not affect the power balance, it would also cut down on the list of those who wish for Personas, since they wouldn't be able to use them outside anyway, so there would be no point in going there for that purpose.

I can work with this.

Have we accounted for everything?

edited 22nd Jun '18 8:59:50 AM by HotmanX32

Not the Metaverse yet, we haven't. Please get yourself familiar with everything story-related about Persona 5 (like I have) before presenting your opinion. Also, the Pantheonic Personas has been updated to fit the post-Persona Overhaul. It's still WIP for the P5 side.

We should also let Camilla know.

Just in case, with my suggestion, here's a recap of who will be left in the list.

Personas can only be summoned within certain domains (e.g. TV World, Dark Hour-affected areas, the Metaverse, etc.), with the exception of those who come from the world where those domains originated, making it pointless to go there just for a power-up.

CMC: This episode was very reminiscent of a Shadow confrontation. Camilla added Personas for the other two. Hmm…given they want to help deities with their issues, at least in the pre-Overhaul timeline, maybe they can still get theirs.
Princess Luna: I used this as a reasoning. Eh, she doesn't really have a reason to go.
Samurai Jack: No reason to go.
Black Mage: Just for gimmick purposes. I don't think Black Mage ever actually accepted his other self. But…take a look here, at the Castle of Ordeals. Actually, given who he is, I think he's illegible. Remove.
Cecil and Kain: Remove.
Opa-Opa: I don't know what I was thinking. Remove.
Jaden: If he still has some lingering doubts…
Martin Walker: Remove him? Some versions don't come to terms with what they did.
HeartCatch Precures: I haven't actually watched the series, but I saw the Mirage Pretty Cure as counting as Enemy Within in the Characters page. So they still qualify.
Knight Gundam: Haven't watched the series, so I don't know.
Carly: Remove. Camilla might have something more to say, though.
Ness: His trip to Magicant features Ness's NIghtmare, which I thought qualifies. Remove since he has no reason to get one.
Plague Knight: Remove.
Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde: Remove?
Marked Ninja: Remove.
Yamato: Remove.
Gentaro: This is up to Camilla.
Dom Cobb: Remove?
Sam Vimes: I don't really know what I was doing with this.
Granny Weatherwax: Same here.
Willow Rosenberg: Haven't watched Buffy, so I'm not sure.
The Panda King: I think you can remove this?
Moist von Lipwig: I saw a made-for-TV movie where he's haunted by his crimes. But he no reason to go either, so remove.
The Human Child: This video got me inspired. I think they'll want to visit at least to confront Chara. I know they're not even the same person, but given their situation, I think I can make a reason.
Megamind: A sequel features him fighting an AI version of his old self, pre-Heel–Face Turn, so I figured it technically qualified. But remove.
Iji: Well, this is personal for me, so… I figured she'd go because of the arguments that she's not actually a pacifist concerned her (in-game, she can end up being very technical about it), which is her reason for ascension (she used to represent Pacifist Run). I figured that deep down maybe she knew that, but I thought it might take a Shadow to call her out for her hypocrisy and to break her "reasoning" down. And then after this, she would attempt to be better from now on, and be truer to what a pacifist really is. She's staying
Marik: None. Dark Marik's already up anyway.
Nanako: In reality, a trip to the TV World wasn't even in the initial plan for the Tales of Life Episode 7: Shattered Illusion. All it was supposed to be is that The Masquerade put over her (i.e. keep Personas secret) gets broken, she gets mad at Yu for hiding it from her and runs off, and then some other things would happen before they eventually make up. I think the new Shattered Illusion will still end up granting her (and her father) a Persona(given this turmoil conflicting with the love she has for her Big Bro and his friends).
Sunset: Remove.
Alphys: All those secrets… they seemed prime material, and because I wanted a Sensor-type Persona-user that wasn't Fuuka, Rise, or Futaba. I'm still debating a bit.
Cosmo: Remove.
Fighter: I figured he'd somehow make it despite that. But…yeah.
Shinji Kido: Alt self. Remove.
Souji Mitsuka: Ehh…
Ahiru: Remove.
Flowey: Remove.
Max Caulfield: She technically faced herself at Episode 5, but the confrontation was interrupted by Chloe. I think she fits the new criteria you've imposed, Hotman. She's staying.
* The Winchesters: With all the crap they've been through? They'd have so many issues. maybe at least just get the defense buffs, since they'll need it.
* Scott Pilgrim: I don't know, but I know Nega-Scott is a character.
* Tomoyo: Feelings of being powerless (as well as the secret she keeps from Sakura even in canon), I thought it would come to a head. I think I'll have her stay anyway.
* Reinhardt: Remove.
* Shield Knight: Reasoning can be reduced to just needing to face her fears and stop the nightmares plaguing her.
* Madeline: Eh, I can remove it and modify Badeline's situation to the Court of the Gods allowing her to manifest outside the mountain.

Camilla and I also had these in eventual queue for Persona acquisition before all this.

Marlin (Finding Nemo): Cancel.
The rest of the Mane Six (and Angel Bunny): Cancel.
Jack Atlas: Cancel.
Aki Izayoi and Yusei Fudo: Cancel. Maybe.
Tommy Oliver: From a comic story called Shattered Grid, bit it's an AU, so probably cancel.
The Cup Bros.: Pertained to an alternate ending, so maybe cancel.
Now for the Potentials we had. The new criteria you've set up ironically might make them eligible now.

• Puella Magi: No. For same reasons as Sayaka.
• Murasaki: Maybe no.
• Hikaru Shidou: Did she make peace with her? I don't think so.
• Korra: Too OP? Maybe no.
• Solid Snake: Maybe?
• Riku: Too OP. No.
• Sora: Too OP. No.
• Toa Nuva: They may have beaten the Shadow Toa, but I don't think they've come to terms with them.
• Turaga of Metru Nui: Was going to for some extra powers, but with the new rules, no.
• Cloud Strife: KH 2!Sephiroth seemed very Shadow-esque. But I think FF 7!Cloud has moved on. So prolly no.
• Mane Cast^* and Angel Bunny: Can probably still take a trip there, to come to terms with what they experienced in Muse Hysteria, Friendship Asylum, and so on, etc.
• Piccolo: No.
• Ranma: No.
• Reinforce Eins: Too OP. No.
• Luke Skywalker: He did fail that trial at the cave… But is he too strong?
• The Doctor: Too OP. No.
• Soul Evans: I don't think he came to terms with it in the anime. But…
• Simba: That "Shadow" he faced was actually what remained of Scar's Heartless, and he has conquered that. So prolly no.
• Kairi: I think she's content right now with just visiting Naminé down in the TV World.
• Jane Doe: Gimmick. No.
• Tavish DeGroot: Gimmick. No.
• Dell Conagher: Gimmick. No.
• Mr. Mundy: Gimmick. No.
• Homura's Crimson Squad: "While the Scarlet Selves are not really Shadows, their mental assault they tried to use on them make them very similar to such." Does this make them fit, or no?
• Milla: No. An alt form caused by outside factors probably doesn't count, right?
• J'onn: Too powerful?
• Luigi: Alternate identities don't work, do they? So no?
• Grant DaNasty: I don't know.
• Vincent Brooks: …he might actually qualify under the new rules. He never really made peace with it.
• Guts: Hmm…too powerful?
• Kara Zor-El/Supergirl: Hmm…too powerful? I'm pretty sure she's not on the same level as her cousin Kal-El/Superman.
• Kagami Hiiragi: No.
• Jade Chan: …Maybe? Or no?
• Leona Heidern: No.
• Ryu: Maybe?
• Cut Man: No.
• Sonic the Hedgehog: Maybe…?
• Shinji Ikari: Until we have a 4th Rebuild of Evangelion movie. No.
• Superman: Too OP. No.
• Tucker Foley: He can fit under these new rules.
• Aqua: Too OP. No.
• Isaac: Unclear. Maybe?
• Victor Stone/Cyborg: Maybe?
• Thief: No.
• Philip J. Fry: I think so.
• Steve Smith: Probably no due to what Steve-arino wants to do; kill Steve.
• Van Hohenheim: Umm…Check this out
• Rei from Persona Q: I think she fits.
• Lucy: Too OP. No.

As for the Metaverse clients, we're still working out all the kinks, so we'll hold off on that for now, but I have these to say.

• Berserker Iji: The New Phantom Thieves story might give her something. Or not.
• Ryotaro Dojima: With where the New Shattered Illusion is going, I think he'll just get his around the same time as his daughter's.
• Agatha Heterodyne: The special mission can still be a go, no Persona needed.

As for the reboot involving the Phantoms, here're all I can think of as allies in Heists. Amy other ideas, Camilla?

• Garrett: He may be all for the stealing (for himself), but he's still a pacifist. Might have tense relations at first, with worries of him stealing behind their backs.
• Carmen Sandiego: Wild Card, after having stolen the Meta-Nav (because she can definitely do that) from one of their number. Also doesn't kill people.
• the Leverage crew: As sort-of mentors for non-Metaverse heists/cons.
• Razputin the Psychonaut: Same Journey to the Center of the Mind abilities and purposes.

edited 24th Jun '18 10:43:22 PM by nightelf37

Sorry, but this discussion is over. Mods, lock this.

Looks like it's back to the PMs from this point forward.

P2-1 characters shouldn't be limited the way P3 users are onwards since they can summon their personas anywhere.

Not my profile but the Embryon Tribe that are being worked on in the Pantheon Discussion thread the Atma Avatars are described as basically being Genetic Cannibal Personas. The female body shaped AI even calls them the "True Self" and a Black Man from the Solids with the pale, beautiful warrior Cu Chulainn as his Avatar even suffered an existential crisis about his identity on whether he should stay himself, embrace Cu Chulainn, or become a mixture of the two.

Also the real reason we'd want to keep the Personas on the down low is that Nyarlathotep can use rumors to bend existence and make Shadow Selves of Persona users. The fact he does this in P2 gives them malevolent red eyes to showcase a malevolent forces influence in manifesting them separate from the persona. They are still real Shadows and killing them would kill/Empty Shell the Persona User. One wrong move into the wrong dominion and we've got evil doppelgangers fudging stuff up.

In regards of the stories that feature this Persona rule, I'm not too sure. I have followed the 'Great Upheaval' quite heavily and it's not as simple as it seems as you not only had to remove any mention of Sayaka using her Persona powers, but also change all mention of the Investigation Team doing the work turning witches into Personas.

However, I do acknowledge that some stories or profiles may feature the Persona rules in action heavily and thus require extensive changes, if not rewrite the entire Trope Pantheon Stories in that Wordpress site. I don't know which ones, but I did read some Tales of Ascensions mini-stories that did use them as kinda their plot point.

Night Elf 37, what do you think?

Hotman (and safind) mandated this restriction. You'll have to ask them, but I think they want to shut down this thread, thinking it's over.