During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
One of my favorite underrated video games now.
What's the work?
Vagrant Story is set in the world of Ivalice, introduced in Final Fantasy tactics, and features hero Ashley Riot, a knight of the kingdom of Valendia. Ashley is a Riskbreaker, an elite warrior sent in on the most dangerous of missions. Now, a ruthless cult leader named Sidney Lostarrot kidnaps the son of a powerful duke, forcing Ashley to descend into the cursed city of Lea Monde to rescue the hostage and end Sydney....but rival factions are afoot, as well as the dark forces of Lea Monde itself.
Who is Sydney Lostarrot?
Sydney is a charismatic cult leader who preaches about human sin and the end of the world, who bears the mysterious 'Blood Sin' tattoo on his back....he's also creepily immortal. Like, Ashley stabs him in the heart and Sydney is just amused. Sydney bids Ashley to chase him into the darkness of Lea Monde, proclaiming "For I am the Hart, and you are the Hunter!"
Now, Sydney's kidnap victim is 4 year old Joshua, the son of Duke Badorba. Here's the twist: Sydney? Is Bardorba's elder son, born with a terminal illness. To save him, Duke Bardorba infected him with the powers of the Dark, resulting in the Blood Sin tattoo which Sydney uses to keep the darkness contained. As the leader of the Mullenkamp cult, Sydney is a genius who gives prophecies that always come true, eerily enough. The problem? The Duke is dying and Sydney knows that without him, the Dark will become...volatile and too many people will want it for themselves. Sydney kidnaps Joshua, intending on passing the Dark to him, giving his little brother to his second in command Hardin, as the one he can truly trust. However, as Ashley pursues him, Sydney realizes Ashley may be more suitable. Sydney sets up the whole game, manipulating different factions and Ashley to face the trials of Lea Monde and its darkness.
Unfortunately at the end, Sydney is defeated by the evil paladin Romeo Guildenstern who turns out to be a vicious sociopath out to steal the powers of the Dark and cleanse Ivalice himself, literally ripping the skin off Sydney's back to empower himself with the Dark....but Sydney has the last laugh. You see, the whole game was a test: those who crave the Dark cannot control it. Only one with no desire for its power can contain it. And Ashley is the one who can. Weakened, Sydney knows Ashley will defeat Guildenstern, who is consumed by the Dark.
Ashley becomes the new vessel for the Blood Sin and the Dark, forced to carry the burden, becoming the Vagrant. Sydney returns to his father, insuring Joshua is safe, and Bardorba and Sydney embrace before ending their lives together, free of their burdens at last.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A good schemer?
The whole game is Sydney constructing an elaborate test to see who's worthy to be the next man to keep the Dark at bay. Sydney is a charismatic cult leader who holds his sect in thrall and he's nothing but charming, erudite and sophisticated. Now, the guy who translated this game gave it an amazing script, with flowery, faux-Shakesperean dialogue and Sydney is the best here, with amazing lines, constantly remaining mysterious and a most compelling villain the whole way through. Everyone finds themselves outwitted and played by Sydney. Everyone.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
He's a cult leader, a manipulative bastard who wants to trick someone into becoming a vessel for dark powers to save the world and was willing to do this to his own little brother. Yeah, Sydney's no saint. Thing is? He's got standards, dearly cares for his right hand man Hardin and is very sad when Hardin dies. He also loves Joshua, his brother, dearly, as well as their father. He respects Ashley, and wants to save the world at large. When he rebukes Guildenstern, he even says "It is a wretched rule that does not value human life."
Conclusion? A brilliant, complex villain in a brilliant game. Sydney is an easy keeper.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Sydney Lostarrot
A total has-been.
I'd say Long John Silver, but I find it hard to believe he was ever in question. Especially when he's played by Tim Curry. 
One more for right now, and this is an unusual one...
What's the work?
The Culture series by the late Iain M. Banks. The Culture series is a sprawling Space Opera series with multiple self-contained novels, all related to The Culture, a civilization and 'empire' that's known as an incredible utopia...and how the Culture occasionally intervenes in the affairs of other races, societies and systems, sometimes less powerful than the Culture, sometimes more.
Now, the book this will focus most on is Surface Detail, one of the final books before Banks' untimely death, but I also have to discuss Use of Weapons, one of the early books, because of the rather...extensive twist endings. With that in mind, I give you Zakalwe.
Who is Zakalwe?
Cherandenine Zakalwe we the son of a good family, with two sisters, Darkcense and Livueta. The family, however, adopted another boy, Elethiomel. Now, things were fine at first, but as the world turned on? Well...Elethiomel and Cherandenine became bitter rivals, not really helped when Cherandenine caught Elethiomel and Darkcense having sex in a chair....things came to a head in their adult years and the two ended up as commanders on the opposing side of a war. Elethiomel had become...twisted and was using Darkcense as a hostage.
Elethiomel's forces were cornered, Cherandenine planning on ending his evil brother...but then Elethiomel sent him Darkcense, having murdered her and made her bones and skin into a chair. Cherandenine, traumatized, attempted to shoot himself. The doctors tried to save his life as Elethiomel's forces launched an attack against the blockade. Good fight and they almost succeeded. So, Cherandenine resigned from the military and becomes a genius secret agent well known for daring risks, winning an unwinnable war and getting stuff done until the end of the book where we get the best twist ending as Livueta arrives to see a badly wounded Cherandenine.
....Because the 'almost' above? Elethiomel's forces did break the blockade. Cherandenine did die. The man we've thought was Cherandenine? Was Elethiomel the whole time, who snapped from the guilt and adopted hi brother's persona. Livueta coldly denounces him and destroys the facade he's created, refusing to forgive him and leaving him broken.
Now, fast forward to Surface Detail....there's a new game. The War In Heaven. ought in cyberspace to determine if individual planets have the right to establish artificial hells on their world, so when people die, they are judged to be sent to this virtual reality hell...to experience horrible torture forever in a sort of Boschian nightmare. The Culture is vehemently anti-Hell but is seemingly content with letting the other sides fight it out...though in typical Culture fashion, they put a mole in to sabotage the pro-Hell side.Should the Pro side win, the Hells will continue to operate unopposed. Should the Anti side win, the Hells will be shut down permanently, with all those inside being transplanted to much nicer Afterlives or, if they so request, just be allowed to "die''.
But one man is planning on sabotaging all of it. And who is that? His name is Vatueil. But, you guessed it? It's Zakalwe. Ever since that encounter with Livueta, centuries ago, he's been hunting his redemption ever since. Initially, he was hired as a double agent for the HELL side, and was sabotaging the anti-hell side...except he had a pang of conscience and decided he couldn't go through with it, so he became a triple agent on his own side. So he screws over the pro hell side, sabotaging the war, helping the heroes and slowly bringing down the hell side, until by the end? The hell side is utterly defeated and the worst bad guys are taken out, thanks to his manipulations.
The novel ends with him very possibly about to meet Livueta again, and the reveal that Vateuil is really Zakalwe....perhaps, just maybe, having come to grips with his own sins, and maybe having achieved his redemption at last.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
In all accounts? Yes. Now, this is very complex as it requires a lot of discussion of events that take place over centuries. As Elethiomel? He's a ruthless sociopath, but he's charming and a charismatic commander. He's the same as Cherandenine. In both guises, Zakalwe is brilliant, ruthless and dangerous, whether as a commander or a secret agent. The thing is, and the ultimate problem...as Cherandenine, it's revealed that he's ultimate far more dangerous and broken than he ultimately appears, having snapped from the horrific guilt of his own evil deeds, with some of his schemes achieving a horrific loss of life and wealth
What I think saves him is coming to grips that he's not Cherandenine. Livueta utterly destroys the self justifying narrative he's created and by Surface Detail he has fought for centuries to do the right thing not because he believes he's Cherandenine, but because it's the right thing to go. As Vateuil, he's ruthless, but still charismatic, a brilliant soldier and he schemes to bring down an intergalactic cyberspace war from within to stop a horrific nightmare becoming the norm. It's a tough one here, to be sure.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
He made his adoptive sister/lover into a fucking chair to trick his brother into killing himself, then went insane from the guilt of what he'd done. Even as Cherandenine, he's a ruthless agent who'll kill his targets, manipulate others and do whatever he has to in order to accomplish his mission. But as Vateuil by the end? He was originally hired by the pro-hell side...and promptly had a crisis of conscience, but even then he does kill a number of people and manipulates everyone, to bring down hell.
Now, his motives are an...arguable thing. There's no reason a selfish need for redemption and defeating the hell side are mutually exclusive, so there's certainly a bit of self interest here, but he does have morals and those morals are revolted by the hell side. He does do it at least partially because it's the right thing to do.
Conclusion?
A VERY complex example. In Use of Weapons, I'd have said no way, no chance. He's far too broken there and as Elethiomel his actions are so monstrous and horrific...but by Surface Detail, centuries of character development has kicked in and while he's far from a pure good guy, he's far from a monster there.
Basically, Zakalwe is a man who tried to be a complete monster, found the cost that took on his own soul, tried to become the brother he murdered out of guilt, failed at that, and then stopped running from his past, and tried to become a magnificent bastard instead who helped end the suffering of untold billions through a series of gambits and manipulations and very morally questionable actions and decisions. Did he succeed? You be the judge.
Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 6th 2018 at 8:32:03 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Very weak to Cherandenine Zakalwe. The entry should focus that this only applies to him after a lot of Character Development.
Goku Black
sidney & Zalakwe
It might be the only case there someone is in contention after a single line of dialogue, since Vateuil is revealed as Zakalwe in the final sentence of Surface Detail.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to Sidney and Zakalwe.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Oh crap. Wrong thread, also. I will re-write Kayaba entry of SAO, to add his small-but-impressive action in Alicization.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Damn. You're fast Lighty. Of course, that is how you are able to see so many media in such a small amount of time
Yeah. Wait a while tho.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 6th 2018 at 11:21:33 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Might have the wrong thread there, Kaz
Yes to Sidney, Zakalwe is murkier but I just lean yes there too.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Just tack on a sentence with whatever and run it by me, easiest way to do it. Take all the time you need 
Yes there.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 6th 2018 at 2:54:29 PM
Alright, now one of my all time favorites. Ladies and gents, I give you: The Man With No Name. Or as I'll be calling him this post? Blondie.
who is the man with no Name?
He's got a cigarillo, a dark squint, , a rough look, a poncho and a cowboy hat. He's a crack shot with a revolver, and has a gravelly voice. He's played by Clint Eastwood and he stars in three loosely connected films known as The Dollars Trilogy. I'll approach them via the order they were released.
Fistful of Dollars features Blondie (Or 'Joe' as he's called here) arriving in a small town dominated by two feuding crime families: the Rojo brothers, led by the monstrous Ramon, and the local sheriff, Baxter. Blondie decides to play them against each other to make some cash and shows off by his gun skills by picking a fight with a group of bandits, claiming they insulted his horse and should apologize. When they draw on him, he shoots them down on the spot. When the Rojos massacre a contingent of Mexican soldiers, Blondie takes two of the dead bodies to a nearby cemetery and sells information to both sides, claiming two soldiers survived the attack to manipulate both sides into conflict. Blondie takes the time to raid the Rojos' hacienda for gold.
Blondie also assists a few of the town's more innocent members during the affair, rescuing a woman named Marisol from the evil Ramon, who massacres the Baxters. Escaping the Rojos, Blondie returns, wearing a chest plate, taunting Ramon by goading him to 'aim for the heart' with his rifle...Ramon having boasted that when a man with a pistol met a man with a rifle, the one with the pistol was a dead man. He guns down Ramon's men, uses his last shot to free an innocent man from his ropes...and then he and Ramon reload their weapons with Blondie finishing Ramon with a well placed shot. Blondie rides off into For A Few Dollars more.
Now, in the sequel, Blondie (Called 'Manco' here) is a bounty hunter who seeks out and guns down outlaws, coming across a fellow hunter named Colonel Douglas Mortimer. The two become aware of a horrifically evil El Indio, a bandit released from prison who Mortimer despises with good reason: Indio raped his sister, causing her suicide. Mortimer and Blondie join up with Indio's gang to keep tabs and manipulate the evil bandit to his end. The two outplay Indio and Blondie? Allows Mortimer to be the one to finish Indio off himself in a quick draw duel. Mortimer and Blondie part as friends, with Mortimer giving Blondie the corpses of the gang for the full bounty.
Now...The Good, the Bad and the Ugly? A prequel. Blondie is partners with a bandit named Tuco in a con game: He turns Tuco in for a bounty, but then shoots Tuco's rope before he's hanged so Tuco can flee. Finally getting sick of Tuco, Blondie abandons him in the desert, only for Tuco to return and punish him by forcing him to walk miles in the scorching desert sun without water, almost killing him...except they come across a convoy of dying men who know the way to a buried treasure, with the only survivor whispering the location to Blondie before passing. Tuco freaks, and the rest of the film is a race to the gold, with Tuco needing to keep Blondie alive, in a very, very uneasy truce, and the evil Angel Eyes pursuing them, too. Blondie pretends to join Angel Eyes to betray and finish him and blows up a bridge to force the Union and Confederate soldiers to disperse and give access to the gold... Tuco betrays Blondie when he gets the name of the grave the gold is buried in...but Blondie tricks him to use as a decoy by giving him the wrong name.
They arrive at the cemetery, all three of them and in one of the best showdowns in film history, they form the 'Triangle of trust,' the three spread out, all debating who to shoot first...and finally, they all draw as one, Blondie shooting Angel Eyes....and it turns out he had earlier taken the bullets from Tuco's gun. He forces Tuco to dig up the grave, and leaves his share of the gold...while hanging Tuco from a tree, leaving him to stand on a gravestone...but at the last second, he turns out, and shoots Tuco free like old times, leaving Tuco with his share of the gold to scream and rage as Blondie rides off a wealthy man.
Is eh charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
Hell yes. he's a young Clint Eastwood (before, uh, the days where he yelled at invisible men in chairs), and he's witty, he's sharp, he's able to win people over without trying. He's got a plan in motion the second he lays eyes on you. For a western main character, Blondie is shockingly intelligent, though not infallible. He's extremely charismatic, conducting himself with an amazing screen presence, and he's capable of forming some significant bonds and friendships in the series. He never loses his cool and he's got some amazing wit to boot. Really, every film features him running some plan, some con and adjusting whenever he needs to. He passes here comfortably. He loses out sometimes (Tuco ambushing him, the Rojos capturing and torturing him) but he always bounces back and turns it to his advantage.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Interestingly, Blondie seems to grow more moral as the films proceed. His most heroic is for a few dollars more where he's a bounty killer, but only targets really bad people. Indio's gang are a pack of thieving murderers, and Indio is a rapist and baby killer. In Fistful of Dollars, Blondie has a moral code, but his initial primary concern is getting his gold. He does return to save the innocents and finish the Rojos when he doesn't need to, but he does provoke and kill a group of bandits solely to show his skills off to get hired. Good, the Bad and the Ugly? He kills a group of bounty hunters for cornering Tuco, and he's running a long con. Plus abandoning Tuco in the desert was kind of a dick move, to say the least...however, he still has morals. Notably when Tuco ambushes him, he's about to do his shoot the rope trick with a nother man....Tuco forces him to let the man hang and Blondie is noticeably upset by it. But at the end? He does spare Tuco and even leaves him with his share of the gold after taunting him a bit.
Conclusion?
The Magnificent Bastard with No Name
Goku Black
The man with no name
A total has-been.
The Man With No Name
Alright, I brought this up in a PM yesterday and after thinking more on it, I felt like I should bring it up here - of all the examples of this trope on the Pokemon subpage, the one I kind of feel doesn't belong there would be Marcus.
I was never wowed by the presentation of his bastardry and I can't recall a single fan/viewer who was, he's got the look and demeanor of a Smug Snake (being kind of like a discount Jafar but with none of the charm and memorability), and the big thing is, no matter how you slice it, all of his plans and actions end up creating lose-lose situations. His manga incarnation at least wanted to replace Arceus as the god who holds the Jewel of Life and there was a closer shot at success for that (though that version being a Complete Monster hinders his chances of qualifying for this), but the movie version was trying to keep the jewel in order to protect his hometown from decaying, yet as is stated on Marcus' Bulbapedia article: However, during the original turn of events, he had fallen to his death along with Damos after Arceus survived the attack and counterattacked. His original plan (done through simple brainwashing of another guy, which really isn't that clever or audacious) only ended in failure, his own death, and his hometown put at wore risk than before by virtue of Arceus now being angry at all of humanity in the world. His change of plans with his attempt to kill Arceus with the silver water was bolder and more impressive, but he himself was very easily beaten and incapacitated by the good guys and a bunch of random Pokemon that they were able to win over to their side, and Arceus slowly dying while the Jewel of Life wasn't with it created a situation that, yet again, could've led to Marcus' death, and then he ended up dying anyway until Arceus turned back time, thus restoring his life. The only reason he seemed to "take his defeat in stride" was because Damos no doubt told him what happened based on the memories that he'd kept and Marcus was thus grateful to be alive rather than dead thanks to his own hubris.
Butler wasn't successful in realizing his goals when his plans came to fruition either, but he at least had the good sense to act in an effort to stop what he had accidentally set in motion rather than thinking up and enacting more self-defeating plans that only made things worse. Therefore, I believe Marcus is the one example there who should be cut.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
The Man With No Name
I have counterpoints to , but I would save them until I actually get to a computer. The big one though is that Marcus was clearly not dying when Arceus was close to death. Those from the future were, but Marcus and those in the past weren’t.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 6th 2018 at 3:44:13 PM
A total has-been.
Point taken there. But I still don't think his revised plan, despite being better than his previous one, is quite enough to push him into Magnificent Bastard territory. He just reaches the bare minimum of Manipulative Bastard and good planner but without the style and charm needed to give him true magnificence. Even Greevil, who's old and well past the point of handsomeness, has more of that than him.
The original Gunslinger.
Of course, it's ambiguous whether it's the same character in all of them, but IIRC there are enough connections, and he probably counts in all of them individually anyway (possibly not doing enough in FAFDM, it's been a while).
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
To Lighty’s candidates and Ava
After Satoshi says his piece on Marcus we can revisit.
Alright, so here are my counterpoints. I have already stated one of them, and I will not repeat it.
Marcus only looks smug, but in personality he is quite polite when conversed with. Marcus himself is not that smug, and the fact that he actually takes time to hear someone out is proof of that.
Yes, he died in the original timeline from his own mistakes. But upon realizing he has another chance, he takes it. One can't take to the original timeline Marcus as a different character from the altered timeline Marcus. They are the same person, and shows that if Marcus lived, he would have improved on his strategies.
Marcus's performance in battle is more or less because of the different technology for controlling Pokémon. His Pokémon weren't defeated but rather freed from his control. His Pokémon are very powerful in battle, and Marcus didn't lose that way. And since he was from the past, he lacked Poké Balls. So he was making do with the resources he had.
Marcus has the best interests of Michina Town at heart and genuinely believes that he is doing the right thing. He feels even more reassured when he realizes that Arceus will take vengeance in the future. Marcus's actions are not self serving, but for the good of his people. I view that as truly magnificent.
More to that, Marcus is not wrong. His actions are extreme, but every point he made was correct. He could save Michina Town if he kept the Jewel of Life away from Arceus. He could prevent Arceus's wrath by killing it. He is doing bad things to achieve his goals, but no one actually states that the goals themselves are wrong.
So yeah, I think that adds up.
I believe Pegasus from Yu-Gi-Oh has been EP'd. What about Dark Bakura or Rex Godwin from the 5Ds spin-off?
Neither have been yet. Personally, I could see Thief King Bakura more than Yami bakura.
That actually raises a fair point - it's rather ambiguous between the manga and the anime, and the adaptations of both, what the relationship is between Thief King Bakura and Yami Bakura. But I'll happily do Rex while people reply to that thought.
I am unsure on Ava. Magnificent Bastard is a trope that I have really specific conditions and I really don't think that a Cast-Full of Jerks is a place for it. She honestly seems more as creepy than charming.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 6th 2018 at 9:52:41 AM
Watch me destroying my country