Condemned by History cleanup thread

Concern prompted by the Game of Thrones example: should this trope have a waiting period of some sort? Maybe a year or more? It's hard to say whether a certain trend or work is officially "dead" in the public eye if it's just in the middle of some backlash that may eventually die out.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 29th 2020 at 2:17:36 PM

5 years, perhaps? How long did disco take to become Deader Than Disco? No Recent Examples, Please! has a dedicated cleanup thread, so it can be discussed there.

Edited by LaundryPizza03 on Sep 30th 2020 at 7:45:46 AM

I don't think that's a good idea, because I'm not sure reactions like this are "permanent" in the first place. If something vanishes for public view because people hate it, it's unlikely they'll go on hating it forever - either it'll eventually make a comeback (like disco did) or it'll just be totally forgotten about.

I can't say I've seen a consistent problem with people posting examples too soon to tell in a way that would be solved with a formal waiting period.

Before I write anything, does anyone think that the Tom Swift books qualify as DTD?

Long story short, they were immensely popular from the first half of the 20th century up to around the 60s and 70s and inspired people from Robert A. Heinlein and Isaac Asimov to even Bill Gates and Steve Wozniak (who read them as kids). Nowadays, they are little known for silly or bad writing (to the point where a "Tom Swifty" means a sentence with a lame pun to the manner in which it is attributed). Also a lot of the (earlier) books contain heavy amounts of racism which is definitely unacceptable today, notably Tom Swift and His Electric Rifle which depicts Africans as brutish, uncivilized animals and the titular protagonist playing Mighty Whitey to a tee.

Thoughts on this?

Edited by Coolnut on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:45:59 AM

Never heard of the book so I can't say.

More of an example of Values Dissonance to me.

Maybe, but Tintin in The Congo (under Comic Books) is DTD for similar reasons. Unless I'm missing something.

Sure, Tintin in the Congo has a scathing lot of racism that would never pass today, but it also had Tintin mistreating and killing animals and a flimsy plot compared to late Tintin titles. Even Herge did not like it, and many fans hate it also. Tom Swift doesn't seem to have the same backlash Tintin in the Congo did.

About Mary Sue being marked as a sexist term: If this is the case, is there a way to opt for a name change?

Well a certain Magazine proudly calls itself the Mary Sue

OK, I'll leave the Tom Swift examples out unless someone has an alternate opinion.

Edited by Coolnut on Sep 30th 2020 at 1:32:30 PM

No. It's a pre-established term. We can't go changing the name of the trope just because it's sometimes used in a sexist way.

It's not the term that's the problem, it's the usage, which is really just Trope Decay in action. It's already Flame Bait and unable to be linked outside Darth because of how contentiously it's used.

How about the Nintendo cartoons? Back in the late 80s/early 90s, shows like the Super Mario Bros. Super Show and Captain N (among others) were pretty popular, but as early as the mid-90s, the shows became jokes to most fans, thanks to the cheesy plots, animation errors, and out-of-character moments (most notably from Simon Belmont's character in Captain N). Nowadays, the main legacy is the "Mama Luigi" meme spawned from an episode of Super Mario World. Does it qualify for DTD?

Eh, I dunno. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! is the only one I heard was popular at the time.

Plus, it's not entirely accurate since Pokémon is a Nintendo property and the anime has been running continuously for the past two decades.

Maybe he's talking about the western cartoons? As far as I know, Pokémon was a Japanese work.

I think he is. I wasn't alive then so I can't judge, but IIRC there are defenders of the early 90s Nintendo cartoons still, so not Deader Than Disco.

Eh. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show is remembered with nostalgia, and I'm not sure Captain N or the Legend of Zelda cartoon were ever popular enough at their height to count. They were... around, but hardly an unstoppable pop-cultural juggernaut.

There's still a lot of nostalgia for all three, especially Legend of Zelda when they made Zelda more of an Action Girl compared to her role in her games at the time. None appear to qualify as DTD.

Ethnic Stereotypes under Western Animation applies to other media, such as comics, movies, and TV. I think it can have it's own folder (Multiple Media)

Would John K and the Weinstein Company count as DTD?

Seems more like Overshadowed by Controversy or Fallen Creator.

In case of the former, he was one of the most influential cartoonists of the 2010s. As of late, there has been backlash against his influence. Half of the Ren and Stimpy fanbase consider the show to be tainted by his involvement, while the other half consider Bob Camp to be the true creator. Further, people have grown tired of Grossout cartoons in general.

Similarly, while the Weinstein Company was very successful, It was notorious for Oscar Bait, which would deny more deserving contenders awards. Not to mention, Weinstein would use underhanded tactics to win said awards. He was also notorious for "americanizing" foreign works, ala 4Kids

To be fair, I think Overshadowed by Controversy and Fallen Creator do have quite a bit of overlap with DTD.

Edited by toonyloon on Oct 7th 2020 at 11:58:28 AM