The term 'Playing the Heavy' refers to playing the villain of the story who does bad things to the good side.
However the Antagonist with the biggest role in the story, thus the most lines, and interacts most with the heroes is for sure a trope. Its not confined to Big Bad, The Dragon, Goldfish Poopgang leader or anything, a minor villain overall can be the Heavy
edited 19th Jan '16 9:13:13 PM by Memers
is now:
The Heavy is the antagonist whose direct actions are the primary focus of the storyline. This is a big role for an actor, if not the largest role, in a play or movie. The term, which goes back to theater in the 1800s, refers to this player having the most lines and thus the heaviest script.
changes to:
This is a big role for an actor, if not the largest role, in a play or movie. The term, which goes back to theater in the 1800s, refers to this player, an antagonist, having the most lines and thus the heaviest script.
This sounds more like the trope's original intention was to identify the antagonist whose role it is to directly oppose the good guys (the villain most actively driving the plot), but then an inappropriate trope name (one with a meaning of its own) was bestowed upon it.
The quoted post seems to be identifying two things about the original write-up:
- Identifying the villain whose role it is to directly oppose the good guys. This a big role for an actor.
- The antagonist with the most lines in the story. This is a big role for an actor.
So, why not split the two, give the first a new name, and leave "The Heavy" as the title of the second? The first does seem to be how The Heavy gets defined elsewhere on the site (look at the The Dragon page, where it states The Heavy is the villain that is driving the plot).
After all, the villain that most directly opposes the good guys isn't guaranteed to be the Big Bad or The Dragon, and the antagonist with the most lines is also not guaranteed to be the Big Bad or The Dragon, and certainly isn't guaranteed to be the villain who is driving the plot. Sometimes they're akin to a villainous narrator as opposed to a plot driver or significant hurdle for the good guys to deal with.
edited 20th Jan '16 4:09:30 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Jupiterian Local
My impression was that the term "the heavy" referred to the antagonist who had the most direct role in opposing the protagonists and who, as a consequence of this, tended to have the most lines (and thus the heaviest script), rather than meaning "the actor with the most lines, which is usually the bad guy that most directly opposes the good guys".
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Well, that's how I was interpreting it as well, until I read this thread.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Well seeing how it's a theater term and most plays are written around the MC, the bad guy who interacts with and does the most bad crap to said good guy(s) would naturally have the most lines but really the core part is the interaction with the good guys.
IE in Final Fantasy X 2 the Big Bad isn't the heavy, nor the the faction you piss off. It's Lablanc who you fight no less than 8 times and run into on numerous occasions.
The Unknown
Doesn't she pull a Heel–Face Turn?
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
She does end up doing that, but she's still The Heavy because she has more time as a villain than any other villain in the work.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Jupiterian Local
LeBlanc would still fit the "provides most direct opposition to the protagonist" definition, though.
edited 29th Jan '16 5:23:51 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
That is the definition really, the point I was really trying to make is most works are written from the heroes perspective so X naturally comes with Y. Others are not really the trope.
I suppose you could call it something like Primary Antagonist or something although it's a little off.
edited 29th Jan '16 5:56:06 PM by Memers
I don't get why this is even worthy as a trope in the first place. I mean, seriously, how is a villain having a lot of lines impacting the plot or characters in any way? We don't have tropes for "[insert race here] character that has the most lines" or "female character that has the most lines", now do we?
The purpose of the wiki has always been to provide a common terminology for discussing storytelling. You could say "Gilligan Cut" and not have to re-describe the trope each time you wanted to talk about it being used. "The Heavy" provides a definition for a term (one in wide use, as it happens) that is the same kind of slang or jargon used by a particular type of storytellers: actors.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Most of the posters are technically naming this wrong...
Not "villain", the Antagonist. That's often a Villain Antagonist, but it can also be a Hero Antagonist. The point is that an antagonist is a character that provides an obstacle for the protagonists to overcome. That makes The Heavy the character who provides the most conflict in the story. The protagonist resolves the conflict, and the Heavy creates it.
That means The Heavy could be the most ineffectual villain in the story, the Goldfish Poop Gang, but still count as The Heavy because they're always around to provide conflict that is resolved by the main characters.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Beautiful summary there.
I don't think Hero Antagonist counts, at least most of them, most of the time those are responding to the obstacles set by the protagonist.
Villains Act, Heroes React, The Heavy is the face of 'act'.
edited 30th Jan '16 10:31:16 AM by Memers
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
The Heavy still exists in Heroes Act, Villains Hinder. The Wonderful Wizard of Oz has The Wicked Witch of the West.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Jupiterian Local
How's this for a rewritten description, then?
In terms of story role, the Heavy can be anything from an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain all the way up to the Big Bad, as long as they're the ones out front and center, personally opposing the heroes rather than staying in the shadows and working in the background. The Heavy is often The Dragon, as keeping the Big Bad out of the limelight makes them more mysterious, and thus scarier; this also allows for a Non-Action Big Bad, with the Heavy providing the muscle. However, the Heavy is an antagonist trope, not a villain trope, so they can be a Hero Antagonist standing in the way of a Villain Protagonist just as easily.
The name of the trope comes from theater terminology used as far back as the 1800s. The Heavy is a big role for an actor, sometimes the biggest role in the work, eclipsing even the main character. This means that the Heavy tends to have the most lines, and therefore the heaviest script.
Not to be confused with the band of the same name, or the Heavy Weapons Guy.
I was more talking about shows like Code Geass where the protag Zero is very clearly the villain and is acting while the antagonists are reacting. In the alternate reality manga Suzaku Of The Counterattack where Zero is the antagonist he is The Heavy.
Most counterparts to a true Villain Protagonist role can not be The Heavy because the Villain Protagonist is already doing The Heavy's job to the Hero Antagonist.
Also Heroes Act, Villains Hinder can be hit or miss depending on the way it is written. Something like Ni No Kuni Wrath Of The White Witch which is written much like the Wizard Of Oz does not have The Heavy, the hero fixes what the villains do to the world to hinder him but he does not see or interact enough of the villains to invoke The Heavy.
The Witch in Wizard Of Oz really doesn't actively do enough to be The Heavy as well I don't think, not enough facetime she was just plotting ala the Emperor in Star Wars. Not every work has The Heavy.
Not to mention that most works actually flipflop between Villains Act, Heroes React, Heroes Act, Villains Hinder, Heroes Act Villains React all the time. Mobile Suit Gundam for example uses all 3 depending on the episode and what point in the war it was, yet Char is The Heavy just like Vader in Star Wars.
edited 30th Jan '16 12:18:41 PM by Memers
I think Native Jovian's rewrite hits all the salient points. Especially the part about it not necessarily being on one end of the Villian-Hero axis.
edited 30th Jan '16 2:49:47 PM by eyebones
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
Yeah, I can agree with Native Jovian's version.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
No, the other one.
It's not inaccurate.
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Hi
42: That's a good write-up. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
edited 31st Jan '16 4:10:27 AM by Willbyr
Works for me.
It works for me, might need to make it more clear that it really requires face time and contact though. I don't think those who hinder and cause problems from a distance are it, that might be a whole other very interesting trope.
The first Lord Of The Rings movie created the Uruk Hai 'Lurtz' to actively play The Heavy for that film because no one actually fit the role despite multiple cackling villains around like Saruman hindering the fellowship.
edited 31st Jan '16 2:06:57 PM by Memers
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I think The Heavy can be physically distant, but they have to be onscreen. Almost everything they do has to be onscreen so we know it is their fault it happens. The Witch encounters Dorothy five times before she's killed in the castle, and only twice was she physically present with Dorothy.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
If "The Heavy" just means "the bad guy with the most lines", then it's not a trope and we should cutlist it.
If "The Heavy" mean what's currently spelled out on the page — the antagonist who directly opposes the heroes — then we shouldn't change the trope description to remove that definition in some misguided attempt at "clarity".
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.