Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

I can't really get behind that logic because the public, by and large, cares nothing about whether or not they already wanted a movie before they go and see it. That's a conception only serious fans of something would entertain in the first place (and in those cases, it's often actually shorthand for "I wanted a movie about my favorite character instead"). If the public, as a whole, actually cared about whether they already wanted a movie about the specific character they had before seeing it, most O Ps or uncommon I Ps would fail as a matter of course. And tumultuous series would never have resurgences.

And even with major fans, that's typically not a sentiment consumers take seriously, at least not in the past (it's problematic, for one). This is by and large the only situation I've ever seen where people attempt to elevate it to a significant thing: to give a contemporary comparison, Ant-Man when it first came out got the same criticisms: that the main character was a "nobody" and that nobody wanted it. It still got enough pull from general audiences and fans to both succeed, and get a sequel.

So clearly there was something else going on there.

The general viewing public, generally speaking, has the thought process of "there's a movie -> do I like the genre -> do people say it's good -> let's check it out." I've noted before that a big problem Solo came up against is that the general public perceives Star Wars, in particular the side movies, as niche, and with the negative place the Star Wars fanbase was in at the time, "this isn't for me" and "even Star Wars fans hate this movie" overrode a couple of those stages.

It doesn't help that Disney / Lucasfilm has been cultivating that perception ever since TFA (both TFA and TLJ are heavily reliant on the audience already being fans of the series in the way earlier movies were not). For what little play it got, Solo wasn't advertised as "here's a cool adventure movie in the Star Wars universe," it was advertised as "here's the in-depth history of one character from the series," alienating casual fans.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 23rd 2018 at 9:06:31 AM

May I ask what O Ps means?

There's a difference between not being sure if you're interested in something and being aggressively disinterested in something.

Solo is a movie starring Han Solo in which none of the following things are true:

• Han Solo is played by Harrison Ford, the only actor a casual filmgoer would ever want to see play Han Solo, as the character is basically just an excuse to put Ford onscreen and let him be awesome and funny.
• The EU novels that you eagerly read and that made you fall in love with the character are canon to this film.
• Han Solo is not a subject of controversy whose popularity has been in decline among new generations of fans.

Had the film come out in the 90's and starred Harrison Ford in an adventure straight from the pages of the Legends EU, it would probably have made buckets of cash. But as it is, it's a movie that nobody wanted.

That doesn't mean a movie that everyone was on the fence about. That means a movie that nobody wanted to exist. It isn't that nobody cared about the movie, it's that everyone did care, and that care was in the form of thinking that this was a stupid garbage idea they weren't about to pay money for.

Disney miscalculated on the appeal of Han Solo as a character at a time when they'd erased 90% of his character from continuity and the remaining 10% hadn't exactly aged well.

> May I ask what O Ps means?

Original properties I THINK.

Let’s not forget the inflated budget from the reshoots of 80% of the film, and that it came just two weeks behind a low-budget underhyped indie movie about a purple guy.

In regards to the dislike for Han, I’m well aware of the re-evaluation of his predatory actions towards Leia in Empire, but does it extend beyond Empire? Genuinely curious and wanting to know, because it’s always Empire I see mentioned when this is brought up and I don’t see the other two films or The Force Awakens mentioned.

I am certain the "Han re-evaluation" had no notable impact on Solo's performance. I cannot think of a single Alternate Character Interpretation that has a confirmed box-office impact in a popular franchise. It was more likely apprehension about recasting the character and the overall value of the premise, I loved it for being a Western but those have not exactly seen a resurgence in popularity. Rogue One banked off being a war movie to great success.

Han behaves quite well in ROTJ, I thought - he even tells Leia at the end that the heart wants what the heart wants and if hers wants Luke, he can't stop her.

Well with Solo I'm not sure most people are really aware of the notion of him being a sexual predator. I mean, I personally had to have it pointed out to me and even then, while I can see the argument I don't outright agree with it. It's not so much that Han is a predator, just that the writers didn't think through the implications of the scene, probably due to a sort of Fourth Wall Myopia. We, the audience, know it's a romance arch so we know that deep down Leia is actually consenting...though realistically Han shouldn't have been able to tell.

Plus, I've never really seen the way he treats women as a major part of his character, at least in the movies. The scene with him kissing Leia could have been rewritten to remove the Unfortunate Implications without really changing Han's character.

While I don't see Han and Leia as a flagrant example, I can... definitely believe GL may have some issues with women. Among other things, in the first draft of Raiders, Marion's "I was a child" line explicitly meant she was underage when Indy seduced her (though this would've happened in the 1910s so I guess Deliberate Values Dissonance is possible), and one of his last movies before he retired was Strange Magic, a Beauty and the Beast-esque animated musical aimed at young girls... all about how magic date rape is hilarious and even has one character fall in love with the guy that roofied her earlier, because It Just Showed He Cares.

Edited by HamburgerTime on Sep 23rd 2018 at 2:56:53 PM

There’s also Indy kidnapping Willie in Temple of Doom and the whip snag at the end, plus forcibly kissing Elsa in Last Crusade. I absolutely believe Lucas has issues with women and probably doesn’t know how to write consensual romance. I’ve also heard allegedly that the romance in Empire was more consensual in Leigh Brackett’s draft.

I don't see him as particularly... malevolent, though. He honestly strikes me as sort of an Adult Child, who doesn't really understand why a lot of the tropes in the adventure movies and Westerns he grew up with don't fly today.

Yeah, I think that's fair. I'd probably call Lucas more "socially clueless" than outright bigoted.

That and Indiana Jones movies are set set in the past around world war 2 if I not mistaken so one should definitely take the period of time into account also.

Young me probably never paid attention to that in aspect of empire, but older me picked up the fact that Han never gave me a reputable vibe. He was essentially there for money. That and Leia made out with her own brother to get a reaction out of him so neither of them are very good people.

After binge watching a number of 70's and 80's movies thanks to some older family members being in town, Han is very much a product of his time. I lost count of how may times I went wut over "romance" between characters that was blatant sexual harassment or how loveable rogues doing the same was supposed to be just them having some fun.

And this is probably damning by faint praise, but Leia at least gives as good as she gets, lest you scruffy nerfherders forget...

And yes, even at their time the Indy movies were intentional throwbacks.

Edited by HamburgerTime on Sep 23rd 2018 at 4:55:36 AM

It's been several years since I watched the film, but I don't recall Leia being so physically aggressive as to corner Han in cramped rooms and grab ahold of him despite protest, which Han did.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 23rd 2018 at 2:56:01 AM

Honestly, what's done is done in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. You can't go back and change the past to make it more acceptable to our modern standards.

With that said, the focus should be on how current Star Wars films should appease modern tastes. Rather than just relying on nostalgia as a crutch.

And on that note, this might be controversial, but I think Reylo being endgame in Ep. IX would blow everything skeevy in the previous trilogies out of the water, save maybe a few Anakin/Padme scenes.

My autocorrect does not recognize "skeevy," weird.

Edited by HamburgerTime on Sep 23rd 2018 at 5:01:36 AM

Not physical, but she definitely unleashed plenty of verbal assualts at his character. There was also kissing her brother and I am pretty sure she tried to guilt him into staying in a fight he had not much of a claim in.

Reylo is unbelievably gross on every conceivable level. Han/Leia is dated and uncomfortable because times have changed, but it was no different than basically any film featuring heterosexual romance in 1980, and still at the very least watchable today. Reylo is just fucking inappropriate and off-message, and I, personally, would feel super creeped out watching that romance unfold.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Sep 23rd 2018 at 6:06:40 AM

Though with Lucas, that can also go the other way around. To quote "Weird Al" Yankovic:

Edited by RavenWilder on Sep 23rd 2018 at 3:09:02 AM

I remember never hearing the end of that as a kid from my mom.

Anyways on a different subject, is it likely with The Clone Wars getting a proper conclusion that the episodes with unfinished animation demos (Not the story reels, but the ones that had only clips) would get made? The arc with the Bad Batch on Kashyyyk and Cad Bane’s duel with Boba are things I really wish were finished.

As much as I enjoyed TCW at the time, I'm set on not giving the revival any of my time unless they fricking rework Barriss. I'm still so fricking salty at the path they decided to take with that character.

Per Wookieepedia, the completely unreleased TCW stuff is as follows:

• A Western-style arc about Cad Bane and Boba on Tatooine. Speculation is that this would end in Cad's death at Boba's hands, thus why Cad isn't around in the OT and Boba's sporting his "greatest bounty hunter" title.
• An arc about Ahsoka interacting with the underworld.
• An arc about Wookiee culture.
• A buddy-comedy story with Rex and R2 as a tribute to Top Gun.
• At least one episode featuring Yuuzhan Vong that was a tribute to old alien abduction movies.
• A story revealing that the Jedi Temple was built on top of an ancient Sith temple.
• Another Mon Cala arc.
• The intended Grand Finale, the Siege of Mandalore.

Edited by HamburgerTime on Sep 23rd 2018 at 5:33:33 AM