Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse

It's worth noting that the 616 is f*cking loaded with characters who came from alternate universes, alternate timelines, etc. and just stayed because fans liked them.

Some of them went on to become pretty iconic too, like Cable.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 1st 2019 at 7:40:01 AM

Yes, but as I try to remind others who bring up "Shared Universe bro..." comments, that used to be a very rare occurrence in Spider-Man's corner of things. In the mainline comics right now, Miles Morales is the only example of an Alternate Universe being part of Spider-Man's world, and his co-creator Brian Michael Bendis very carefully went about closing all loops and doors to do it in Spider-Men and Spider-Men II. Fact is that for a long time Marvel's Shared Universe was this elaborate con and joke. It was very much understood by writers/editors/readers that each superhero and team occupied their own genre and corner. Crossovers would happen but they would almost always be inconsequential and negligible in continuity terms. The reason Stan Lee invented that was, as is always with Stan the Man, out of irreverence, wit, humor, and a way to promote different titles but the understanding was that Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and others were largely standalone. The Marvel Cinematic Universe runs into this because the seams become visible...hence all the "why not call the Avengers when Dark Elves attack London" and so on...

That was only really a problem in Ironman 3. In all the other movies, the answer was simply "no time", "not their job" or "this operation has to be conducted in secret".

It's rarely a problem in the MCU at all, really. The answer for "Why didn't X Superhero get involved with Y superhero event", in both the films and the comics, is that superheroes lead very busy lives. Where was Captain America when Iron Man was trying to save the world from Doom's Time Ray or whatever? He was fending off a Skrull infiltration trying to replace all World Leaders with Skrulls. Hulk would have lent a hand but he was in the Microverse at the time stopping a plot to exterminate the universe.

The answer to where a given superhero was is always "somewhere else, superheroing". That question is something fans like to use as a "Gotcha", but it's fundamentally flawed because it assumes that every hero in existence besides the one you are currently reading or watching is sitting by their phone waiting for a call.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 1st 2019 at 8:09:20 AM

It was a problem in Thor Dark World (where I don't remember there being any of this "busy" Handwave), and in Ant-Man the explanation was Hank Pym hates Tony Stark because he hates his father Howard...which okay, kinda irrational but by Hank Pym standards in the comics, it's actually modest. It got moot after Civil War destroyed the Avengers. But fundamentally the MCU Shared Universe model is all about spinning newer and newer sub-franchises. Novelty is what they are after. The real reason why Infinity War did so much better than Age of Ultron is that the latter film basically brought the characters of the first film and added in three new characters (Vision, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch), neither of whom were introduced before in their own films. As such it didn't have that element of crossover which gave The Avengers that great thrill. Infinity War on the other hand had Tony and Dr. Strange, Thor and the Guardians of the Galaxy, and oh hey, Spider-Man is there too and here's Black Panther from that movie that came out just a few months ago and is still playing in some theaters when it was released.

It really doesn't work without the individual films and sub-franchises. Kevin Feige knows this absolutely. If they kept doing Avengers movies full-time the MCU would die. And fundamentally the Shared Universe is basically a giant excuse to create and sell multiple standalone universes.

The battle on earth didn't really last that long. The only Avenger who might have been a chance to be there in time would have been Tony, and that was pretty much after he destroyed his suits.

It's not a Hand Wave. It's a basic assumption. Superheroes lead busy lives. The reason X superhero isn't present is because he's somewhere else, doing something else. Most people are somewhere else, doing something else, at any given moment.

The Earth portion of The Dark World's climax happen abruptly and last for about ten minutes. Thor was able to be involved because he'd already been involved from the beginning. Captain America, Iron Man, Black Widow, etc. would need to first find out it's happening, then drop whatever they're doing at the time, find a means of transportation to get to England, and make the trip.

It is entirely ridiculous to assume that all superheroes everywhere are capable of instantly teleporting to a given crisis zone the moment it breaks out. To then hold it against the film or comic that they did not is to deliberately try to find a thing to be upset about. Thor: The Dark World was a bad film, but it's not the absence of Captain America that makes it a bad film.

If your point is that these characters are not glued together at the hip, eating lunches together and fighting every battle together and braiding each other's hair, then you're not wrong. But it doesn't make the MCU or the 616 any less of a Shared Universe just because each of its lead characters has a life outside the Avengers.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 1st 2019 at 8:23:16 AM

My point is that fundamentally the whole idea of "if Shared Universe then X..." as in the case of discussing Spider-Verse sequels and so on, shouldn't be an automatic Get Out of Jail for free card. You also cited an X-Men character Cable as a justification and warrant for Alternate Universe and future timelines alongside canon...when Cable is not a Spider-Man character. The fact is that Spider-Man in the comics for the longest time and even today is written as his own small corner. There's a reason why Mary Jane Watson is one of Marvel's most famous and profitable female character even if she doesn't have superpowers.

In the case of Into the Spider-Verse, this is primarily Miles Morales' story. The action takes place in his world, and all the other Spider-People and so on are Satellite Character for his hero's journey. A sequel focused on Spider-Gwen would be based in her world and have Miles and others as her supporting cast and so on...It can't work as pure mashup all the time because then it would get repetitive.

But most are discarded, forgotten or just killed off.

Very rarely do they become Cable levels of Iconic.

Most characters are forgotten or killed off. As Sturgeon's Law goes: 99% of everything is crap. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try creating a character or introducing a new character to the comics. If nobody tried, we'd never get any new characters.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 1st 2019 at 2:34:39 AM

Except she wouldn't be new, she's just another version of Doc Ock and she wouldn't even be the first female Otto either.

She would be doom to obscurity in the main universe since Otto is still around and they will always favor him.

Olivia would only work if she's the main Doc Ock in a book or tv show set in a different continuity or as a villain in a multiverse book like Web Warriors or Exiles.

Or if, say, she was in a hit animated movie that was winning tons of awards.

Historically Marvel have always been far less receptive and adaptative to incorporating stuff from adaptations into their stories than DC has. DC in the past were crazy about bringing into canon stuff from cartoons, serials, TV shows and so on (Superman Flying, Kryptonite, Jimmy Olsen, Batcave, Alfred, Barbara Gordon among others, the Kryptonian stuff from the Donner movies, the Grappling Hook and other stuff from the Tim Burton movies, Harley Quinn and so on). They did draw the line finally at making John Stewart the prime Green Lantern after he broke out big time with Justice League and backed the unprofitable Hal Jordan for reasons entirely due to Geoff Johns' nostalgia.

Like for instance MCU has made Tony Stark and Pepper Potts the One True Pairing and the great romance of the entire franchise (the first thing that Avengers: Endgame's trailer reminds the audience about), but in the comics, Tony Stark is still this ladies man and so on. Parts of Downey's jokey personality has seeped into comics' Tony however. They even did that storyline where it turns out that Tony is adopted and his birth mother is some British pop-star, don't know if that element is still around. Eventually they will probably mainline that on to Tony since as one of Black Panther (2018)'s producers pointed out, that kind of playboy affect in Iron Man 1 would not fly Post-Me Too!...and having a playboy character in the comics, especially for a businessman who in Ultimate Marvel at one point seduced and dated interns would today not fly in any way. Marvel still prides itself on boomer nostalgia and 50's male adolescent rebellion.

So I don't think Female Doctor Octopus or Liv Octopus' popularity in the ITSV will necessarily be incorporated into the comics. Especially since Liv Octopus is nowhere as popular as Aaron Davis' the Prowler from the same film. Liv Octopus might however downgrade the importance and relevance of Superior Spider-Man for which I would be eternally grateful.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 10:13:21 AM

Uhh...Ta-Nehisi Coates made Shuri that was already in his run on Black Panther. Coates being pals with Coogler and Chadwick Boseman was hired to raise the profile of that comic and he introduced a big geopolitical dimension and the idea of what being an absolute monarchy and a technologically progressive society at the same time means. Shuri being reintepreted and so on was part of that.

Liv Octopus might well show up as a villain in Spider-Gwen or in Miles Morales' series. A major problem with both of them is that they don't have unique villains tailored to them. Miles does have Aaron Davis/Prowler but he needs more. So that may be something they might do, and there are female Dr. Octopi already. So repurposing one of them into Liv Octopus wouldn't be hard..."...that was my alias, my real name is Liv...Mwah-hah-hah" or something like that.

Okay, but Coates was building her up as someone who was more important than she had been before. In any case, that's Marvel importing one small detail from the film into a pre-established character who was already being redeveloped and shaped for a bigger role. That's still not the same as outright importing or annexing an entire character and story from adaptations. The one exception I can think of is when they brought Phil Coulson into the Marvel Universe alongside the debut of the 616 African-American Nick Fury — now a long-lost biracial son the white Nick had with some babymama who also has the name Nick Fury and is basically being treated like he's been around the whole time, the whole time.

In any case, Marvel might be doubly reluctant to bring Liv Octopus into the comics for the fact that she's from the Sony Spider-Man movies. And the Marvel Comics is kind of a content farm for the MCU...Jonathan Hickman created the Black Order in Infinity a comic series that came out after The Avengers 1 and that ultimately provided mooks for Infinity War. I mean I doubt they will ever do to Spider-Man what Perlmutter did to the X-Men, since Spidey is simply bigger, but I bet there might be some frowns at seeing Sony's success and so on...and while there won't be any cancellations of Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen since again Disney-Marvel are invested in both, there might be limits to how far they want to give credit to Sony's version of Spider-Man.

And I don't see what's wrong with taking something from the Sony films. The films use the comics as a content farm, so why not the other way around?

Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:16:23 AM

Didn't Sony legally prevent Marvel Comics from using their concepts in the original Spider-Verse storyline? Apparently Dan Slott mentioned it a few years back, as the reason why he only got a vague gag mention rather than even a cameo appearance.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:11:45 AM

A lot of characters in comics don't start off in the comics…this list includes:

Commissioner Gordon (was popularized in the 1966 Batman show, though naturally the character changed a lot since then) Harley Quinn (famously introduced in Batman TAS). Coulson and half of the Agents of Shield characters

And those are just the most famous examples. There was always an interaction between the different media. They influence each other.

Thus said, Doc OC was great in Into the Spider-verse, but it was also a one-scene wonder. So maybe first building a little bit on it?

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:18:12 AM

Sony didn't want direct references and appearances of the Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield Spideys. And to be honest I agree because the underlying subtext and idea of Dan Slott's Spider-Verse is that the comics' 616 Spider-Man has primacy over all other versions, including adaptations and so on, which allowed him to willy-nilly kill Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends in a single panel. Whereas Sony would feel that the fans of the movies have full right to see Tobey Maguire, or Andrew Garfield, as the one true Spider-Man, in the same way fans of one generation of comics would see one cartoon adaptation as the true one and so on. And Sony damn sure didn't want Marvel to decide what happened to those versions of the characters because the Raimi films matter to them in terms of brand value. That was the undercurrent of meanness in Spider-Verse that ultimately soured that, even if there were Hand Wave and references that no every Spider counts and matters and so on. ITSV does it much better but then it's because it's more Bendis and Robbie-Latour than Slott.

Commissioner Gordon is in Detective Comics #27 the very first Batman comic ever. He's the first, major, longest-lasting supporting character in Batman's comics, older than Robin, Alfred and all the Rogues Gallery. The TV Show created Barbara Gordon...

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:24:28 AM

“That was the undercurrent of meanness in Spider-Verse that ultimately soured...”

What meanness??????

This thread can give you some idea. The comic book Spider-Verse was intended to be Part Nostalgia Filter and part mash-up, but it upset audiences and also some Spider-Man creators.

Well the event featured a lot of fan-favorite Spiders being brutally murdered & devoured, including Mayday's father.

Plus Silk wasn't very well-written at that point (started before her solo series which Rescued her from the Scrappy Heap).

Yeah some major issues there.