This trope doesn't allow Final Bosses or Bonus Bosses unless they are very difficult by their standards, but they still appear in the various pages from time to time. Special mention in the fighting page, where it gets confused with SNK Boss.

Just to notice, SNK Boss doesn't have a problem. It's a legitimate trope whose definition is "In a fighting game bosses are given different ways to cheat, but it's justified because there's no other way to make them a more difficult challenge than regular matches". Since (most) fighting games only have Final and Bonus bosses SNK Boss is by definition NOT allowed in That One Boss. It's been suggested to completely cut the fighting page of That One Boss because of that.

The trope is also prone to Walkthrough Mode, even when it's clearly marked in the pages that we don't allow it and the numerous times it's been deleted.

EDIT: SNK Boss Syndrome is a known gaming term that conveys the trope, just in case someone thinks SNK Boss should be renamed.

edited 3rd Jan '12 11:32:48 AM by DrMcNinja

If it has bad examples, remove them. You don't need a TRS thread for that.

The fact that misuse keeps appearing needs to be taken care, though. And I won't directly eliminate the fighting page either.

How about change that to no final bosses or bonus bosses period? Or make a soft split like?

Playthrouh Bosses

• Examples

Final Bosses and Bonus Boss

• Examples

Though I wouldn't mind cutting it, its not like subjective pages are part of the wiki's mission. Actually I want to cut it and or cut Goddamned Boss because dammit, how many The Scrappy(but for bosses) do we really need? That's really all these pages really are, they are not tropes.

• edit: trope links fixed.

edited 4th Jan '12 1:58:04 PM by Cider

I think categorising them like that would only encourage more final and bonus bosses.

Is that really a problem though, unlessy the are of normal final / bonus boss standards? Which is, as the YMMV item itself, subjective.

I think what we need to focus on first is the fighting page. I say remove examples that are already on SNK Boss, and cut it if very few examples are left.

edited 4th Jan '12 12:30:20 AM by Laukku

I think Final Boss and Bonus Boss shouldn't be here ever, no exceptions. No matter how difficult they are, the Final Boss and the Bonus Boss are supposed to be the most powerful challenge a player can find, even if they aren't sometimes. The Dev Team can't always think of everything, and That One Boss usually becomes harder than any other because of That One Attack or Luck-Based Mission, but not statwise.

Besides, most times in games you can get every power up before facing the Final Boss, while you can't do the same with That One Boss. I'm sure many of the bosses listed here would be quite easier if you could get one of the abilities that you get later in the plot. If there's New Game Plus That One Boss might become an Anticlimax Boss thanks to that.

Some Final Bosses, True Final Bosses or Bonus Bosses are Anti Climax Bosses by themselves without actually grinding and such IE Final Fantasy X in which you literally can not lose (unless you do it yourself) having a perm Auto Life spell on all your characters. Final Fantasy VII and Xeno Saga episode two are the same way. (even if you do nothing you still win.). Final Fantasy XIII's Final Boss was easy too after a the second to final boss being very brutal.

Final Bosses that have a particularly brutal Difficulty Spike from previous bosses might be a different trope though (might help take care of the non-Fighting Game examples in SNK Boss too since those dont really fit that trope.)

Bonus Bosses though shouldnt count in any way though.

edited 4th Jan '12 2:51:23 AM by Raso

The Final Boss of Final Fantasy X is not Yu Yevon, it's Braska's Final Aeon. Yu Yevon is a Post-Final Boss. In Final Fantasy VII happens the same, the Final Boss is Safer Sephiroth.

And you clearly didn't got hit with the 50% chance of Insta Death attack of the Final Boss in Final Fantasy XIII, which he loves throwing to your leader (and thanks to We Cannot Go On Without You that means Game Over). Believe me, he's not pushover. Dysley (or Barthandelus) just requires hitting him hard for his That One Attack to become nothing, though I admit it's a bit counterintuitive. So, Dysley qualifies for That One Boss, but that doesn't make the Final Boss easy, just easy compared to him.

edited 4th Jan '12 3:02:33 AM by DrMcNinja

Dysley is not the Final Boss, its Orphan even the achievement state this get 5 stars on the final boss fight, which is to get a 5 star rating beating her (this actually gets harder the stronger you are.) She is damn easy to beat... break damage shield... pwn her puts the shield back up rince and repeat... Random battles before her were harder.

And Those two would be True Final Boss not Final Boss I guess, my point still stands though.

EDIT: ya changed your wording... anyway point still stands

edited 4th Jan '12 3:02:07 AM by Raso

Read Post-Final Boss, which Yu Yevon and Sephiroth are. And the Final Boss of FFXIII still has the damned 50% Insta Death attack, so you just were lucky enough to not get hit, or he didn't use it (Orphan is technically a he, not a she). Oh, and I forgot, Doom for the second part, so you have to deal with a Time Limit. So funny that guy.

EDIT: I changed my wording because I was looking for the appropiate tropes to mention, I didn't see other post so I edited without worrying, not that I wanted to confuse you or anything.

edited 4th Jan '12 3:20:58 AM by DrMcNinja

The easiest way to fix this is to not allow any examples of Final Bosses or Bonus Bosses. There's really no reason for it.

edited 4th Jan '12 2:39:34 PM by petrie911

Exactly. That's just what I propose. After all, whether they really are the most powerful challenge or not a Final Boss is supposed to be it.

As I understand it, That One Boss is basically "a boss that's way harder than you expected". I can see why you would exclude Bonus Bosses from that (since, as optional content, they're pretty much expected to be more difficult) but why would Final Bosses be excluded? They're generally part of the same difficulty curve as the rest of the game — if a game is fairly easy up until the Final Boss and then there's suddenly a huge difficulty spike, then that seems like a legitimate use of That One Boss to me.

Because the Final Boss of any game is supposed to be the most difficult challenge of the game, barring the overpowered Bonus Boss. You expect (or at least should expect) from the Final Boss That One Attack, tons of Hit Points, and to go One-Winged Angel among other things, something any other boss shouldn't have, at least with the same intensity.

However you can't expect the Dev Team to think of everything. Sometimes they fuck up and give a more powerful That One Attack to a previous boss. Or they rise the stats more than they should for that part of the game. They might make the fight a Luck-Based Mission that relies a bit too much in the luck than they expected. The result? That One Boss.

Also most times you'll fight That One Boss with limitations of some kind. You won't have all the abilities at that point, you'll lack an important piece or equipment or something that would make the fight quite easier. In any case That One Boss ends becoming more difficult (but most times, less powerful) than the Final Boss.

To sum up, That One Boss is a boss that breaks the Difficulty Spike of the game. The Final Boss on the other hand should be at the top of it, even if the spike rises a little more than expected. But since most people don't realize that and add Final Boss examples not caring if they fit or not the definition the easiest way to deal with the misuse would be banning them.

edited 5th Jan '12 2:28:46 AM by DrMcNinja

I agree that all examples of Final Boss and Bonus Boss should be removed. As is, I'd like to zap quite a few examples in general for being way too easy to beat (particularly any Final Fantasy VI examples... people apparently forget to talk to everyone in town, despite it being the #1 tip in Eastern RPGs for a reason). But since this is subjective, I'm fine with letting many stay.

That said, I've noticed a few examples where the boss itself isn't That One Boss ordinarily, but becomes one if you're trying for some 100% Completion challenge (for example, read the Flammole example from the Mega Man subpage). I think those examples should be zapped, since that's more akin to That One Sidequest (in the case of Flammole, the reward for beating him without hitting his arms is... a doll that decorates a room).

I agree with those that are difficult because of a Self-Imposed Challenge to be eliminated, it just doesn't fit.

About the Final Fantasy ones, not the same. Every time I fight Seymour Flux I end up grinding a lot to be able to beat him. Or any of the bosses after him, really, before fighting Sin. Stupid cheap moves and status effects...

I'll start zapping ones that are clearly due to Self-Imposed Challenge if others are fine.

See, I'd disagree with most examples of Final Fantasy That One Boss because I find that people are too quick to say that status effect spells are Useless Useful Spells, when they come in handy frequently in such fights (as I recall, Seymour Flux is pretty simple with ample use of Dispel, Slow/Slowshot, and items). But I've always been fond of status effects, and I've gotten quite good at knowing when to use them in Final Fantasy games.

At the same time, though, I recognize that Useless Useful Spell is a trope because most people aren't good at that, which heavily colors how most people view certain bosses (looking at you, Atma/Ultima Weapon).

edited 5th Jan '12 9:13:41 AM by 32_Footsteps

As I said before no way BonusBosses would be here but Final Bosses are a maybe. Some final bosses are so much harder than anything before it giving them That One Attack, instan game overs, etc no final boss should make you grind like crazy to win... Do sidequests that are available around to help out sure.

Necron from Final Fantasy IX is one that comes to mind as Grand Cross will insta game over you if you haven't read a guide and trained and equipped status immunities. (The only fight in the whole game where you need to.)

Not saying there are a lot of them just some Final Bosses it makes sense.

Boss Immunities are standard which is why people don't try them. (XIII changed that standard.)

edited 5th Jan '12 9:18:29 AM by Raso

I know quite well the game and I still overgrind when I fight him. It's easier now than it used to be when I started, but fuck that guy, not even overgrind and Haste prevents him to take two turns in a row and eliminate a character with his Revive Kills Zombie strategy. Slow fails miserably, he's immune to it.

Not the place to discuss that. I'm getting a crowner right now to decide if the Final Boss and the Bonus Boss should be banned from this page.

Here it is

edited 5th Jan '12 9:57:03 AM by DrMcNinja

Boss immunities are not nearly as standard as many people think. I find that bosses are more vulnerable to ailments thank many people think. It might only be one particular ailment that affects them, but something will generally be available.

edited 5th Jan '12 9:47:55 AM by 32_Footsteps

Single prop crowner hooked.

Can we get Final Boss and Bonus Boss as different options? I for sure don't think the latter should be but the former should.

Ok, seems fair enough. I'm going to holler so we get a new clean one.

EDIT: I'm going to edit this one.

EDIT 2: I'm not, I thought I could.

edited 5th Jan '12 10:15:18 AM by DrMcNinja

I'd say ban all optional bosses (Bonus Boss, True Final Boss, etc.) and Self Imposed Challenges but allow Final Bosses. Part of the reason being that our Final Boss definition doesn't state that they are "supposed to be the most powerful challenge a player can find", only that they tend to be tougher than the rest. But more importantly, they are still necessary to defeat in order to finish the game, and can prevent a player from advancing wor a while just like any other mandatory boss. This YMMV item is about bosses that players find unreasonably hard, and I don't see how final bosses can't qualify even if the difficulty spike is absurd.

Alriiiiight, I already said that it seems fair to separate those two. Now we have to wait until a new crowner is attached, please wait.