Sexy new way to boost forum coolness. (The Herald Thread)

^ No, we don't officially have anyone that greets newcomers. They usually do get a greeting - though, given their newcomer status and the aforementioned "unique culture", it may not be the friendliest of welcomes, more really people commenting on their yks with a "WTF that's not how you write it".

We could do with something.

Greeting people with just a quick list of the Do and Do Nots would probably be helpful. I know Badass tropes keep appearing in YKTTW despite our best attempts to stop the things from breeding.

One question unrelated to the current topic: what happens when a herald stops coming here and posting for months? Does said herald keep the position or can someone apply to it?

I'm asking this since JHM (Music herald) seems to have left the fora a few months ago.

I was just combatting that over there. Yes, and the "no asking for hats in titles and laconics, and preferably not at all" rule that nobody remembers. Also the "this isn't where you ask if a trope exists", etc. I could compile a proper proper list if you like. Would the auto-message work the same as the fora in yk, though?

Welcome to the YKTTW, also known as "yk", the "You know, that thing where..." forum! Technically it's a forum, but in practical usage it's the place where you bring things that you've seen in works and give it a snazzy name so we don't have to refer to it as "you know, that thing where...". Once you've read a few comment threads, you'll see that this place is full of fun (and a bunch of regulars nuking dead yks), but there's some important points that must be outlined:

• This is not where you ask if a trope already exists. That's here.
• This is not where you ask if a work page already exists, either. That's here.
• In fact, this is not a place to ask questions at all. We have forums for that.

Okay, now, before you propose a new trope, please read the YKTTW Guidelines. Or don't. We don't really have rules, but the expectations I shall summarise and addend below:

• No Snow Clones: no titles that take the format of another title we already have, especially if it requires an understanding of that trope.
• No New Stock Phrases: These are prime targets for Zero Context Examples and people listing non-examples that include the Stock Phrase.
• Speaking of, no Zero Context Examples.
• No Badass tropes. There's an issue with "badass", we're trying to fix it.
• Don't ask for hats - not in the title, not in the laconic, and preferably not anywhere at all. If it deserves hats, they will be given willingly by the pages own merit.
• Adding and fixing examples as well as fixing formatting on other people's propositions is fine. Don't redefine them wholesale, though. When in doubt, ask.
  • You can "take over" if it's Up For Grabs or it's been 8 weeks since the OP's last activity.
• No "edit-save"s: By opening the source text to edit a draft and saving it without editing anything, the discussion is bumped to the top of the pile but without a checkmark. This is confusing, and a bit dickish. Actually editing your draft, or even a YKTTW Bump, is a much more polite option.
• If you're making a yk, unless it's a crash rescue transplant it needs three examples. It also needs some form of description, and a suitable laconic. Note: The title and laconic are not the same thing.
• Be funny.
• Don't be afraid to ask for help. I'll probably remind you to, personally. In a friendly way. Gosh, do I sound creepy?
• Ignoring the above, try to avoid natter.
• And Trope Namer Syndrome. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't; but we're trying to make this place accessible, and I think the effort to make it that comes above cool.
• Don't edit other people's replies to a ykttw: you might think that you're replying to their comment, but the process of editing their reply overwrites the contributor's name, making it appear that you wrote it yourself (and are now arguing with yourself).
• Work Pages Are A Free Launch, but you are totally allowed to work on them in YKTTW or the Sandbox.
• Finally, don't launch tropes without at least three hats, and preferably five. The premature launch clean-up is the most regular of perpetual wiki projects. Yes, it keeps Septimus Heap and Morgenthaler from getting bored, but it's not good practice.
  • Similarly, don't discard discussions without fair warning. In fact, discarding discussions is just plain discouraged, and when needing to be nuked someone with experience will typically make the call.

I may sound nasty, but it's just that there are wiki standards that we encourage you into abiding to without ever actually needing to make you aware of them. Or Dan will just take over your draft.

edited 28th Jun '15 4:05:21 AM by lakingsif

Quag: Liberated Liberator disappeared from tvtropes for a good year without notice. He was replaced when his absence was noted. Has JHM said where he is or when he'll be back?

JHM left this post in the Absent people thread. His last post appeared 9 hours after that one.

-Do you like the list?

^ I think it's pretty good. I don't have anything else to add except I don't think the "Yack Fest" thing is needed.

Ideally, rules are described in a positive way: what you should do, instead of what you shouldn't do. E.g...

Zero-Context Examples are bad: Entries should always have an explanation—even a short one—of how the trope applies. No trope is completely self-explanatory, and the example list should make sense to someone who isn't familiar with that work.

(Of course, sometimes describing both is necessary, but you might be surprised how often it's not.)

edited 23rd Jun '15 10:57:08 PM by rodneyAnonymous

^^^^^^ lakingsif wrote:

Is the ban on asking for hats at all an official (i.e. moderator approved) policy? If so, it should be added to YKTTW Guidelines.

YKTTW Guidelines specifically says that YKTTW proposals can be edited by anyone. I do so myself on a regular basis because they often violate How to Write an Example, have bad spelling/grammar and so on. It's also my understanding that the moderators want improperly written proposals to be corrected.

It might be better to say that they should be edited using the same rules as existing trope/work pages.

YKTTW Guidelines says that one way of performing a YKTTW Bump is to "Edit the entry and enter "save changes" without making any changes". It actually advises tropers to do this.

edited 23rd Jun '15 2:37:10 AM by Arivne

^ Yes, there was a thread and the moderators approved the no-hats thing.

I know you edit drafts a lot, but you don't go and take over as well as commenting the changes you've made. Some newbies read through the "anyone can edit" and just go and take over. Why else would there be a two month rule if not to stop that?

And, for the last point, for the last couple of months doing that has caused no checkmark to appear, which is confusing - the nothing changing and no signs of bumping your own draft thing also encourages people to do it every five minutes. At least telling people that you haven't changed anything but want input should be something asked for.

edited 23rd Jun '15 7:44:38 AM by lakingsif

Only found this discussion via the "Hitler Was Human" ykttw; but I'm not a forum regular.

Don't think I agree with at least a couple of these guidelines:

• Administrivia.Needs Launching Votes aka Needs Hats runs counter to your "don't ask for hats" rule.
• If you're the sponsor, by ykttw etiquette it's preferable to zero-edit a ykttw to bump it instead of a bunch of othrwise empty "bump" "bump" "bump" etc. replies.

But here's another expectation to add:

• Don't edit other people's replies to a ykttw; you might think that you're replying to their comment, but the process of editing their reply overwrites the contributor's name, making it appear that you wrote it yourself (and are now arguing with yourself). The preferred method is to either use carets (^) to "arrow up" to the reply you're replying to, the number of carets corresponding to how many replies up you're referencing your reply to, or referring to the comment poster by name such as "@Tropername, [blah blah blah]"

edited 23rd Jun '15 11:49:44 AM by randomsurfer

The only reason why YKTTW comments are generally editable is because it's necessary to view the source so that examples can be pasted into the draft. It's a technical nightmare that band-aid solutions are unlike to improve to the desired degree.

edited 23rd Jun '15 11:39:32 AM by Fighteer

But new people won't know that coming in, so at least we can warn them about it.

But being able to zero-edit does make people do it every five minutes when there's no progress and it backs up the first page. Because people don't want to add a bump reply so often, because of how bad and needy it actually looks, they don't do it. Zero-editing that frequently is just as desperate but there's no visual evidence, so it somehow encourages bumping via that method. I thought writing that all out would be a bit much, though. And good point about replies.

There was an agreement about not asking for hats with moderators, though.

edited 23rd Jun '15 11:50:26 AM by lakingsif

Then Administrivia.Needs Launching Votes should be deleted or else rewritten to say "don't do that."

As I said I'm not a forum regular; do you happen to have a link to the thread where it was decided that asking for hats is a no-no?

edited 23rd Jun '15 11:55:23 AM by randomsurfer

^ Here

Thanks for the link. Reading it, I don't see anyone mod or otherwise saying that asking for hats is out-and-out verboten (except maybe you).

• Madrugada says "Ask for hats once you think the YKTTW is in launch-ready condition." and later says "(Hats please) is just pimping." in the title.
• Fighteer opines that if something can't get hats organically it isn't hatworthy but I don't read that as moderator fiat.

edited 23rd Jun '15 5:48:24 PM by randomsurfer

Re-reading it, Madrugada does say "The title and laconic are not the place to plead for hats." And, you know, I just asked for input - I never actually said it was wrong, but that "consensus is king" on the opinions.

So, again, do you (all) think it should stay?

EDIT: Wow, that sounds pissed off. Nope, I'm just asking for opinions.

edited 24th Jun '15 5:02:38 AM by lakingsif

A few suggestions/notes:

• Lack of hats is frequently a sign of lack of interest. YKTTW has a large number of drafts and only so many people who look at other people's drafts.
• I would collapse the title rules into a "No line of dialogue titles and no snowclones, please. They invite a number of problems, including editors misunderstanding the tropes or not using them at all. Be cautious with titles containing 'Badass', too."
• "Adding and fixing examples as well as fixing formatting on other people's YKTTW is fine. D On't redefine them wholesale, though. When in doubt, ask." is the formulation of the editing other people's drafts thing I would use.

Wouldn't it have greater readability if every 'point' had a line?

I'll edit them in.

I just noticed that Quag 15 (the Live Action Film herald) does not have the little herald icon appearing at the top of his posts in that forum. Since my posts in the webcomic thread still have it, it's clearly some kind of bug.

Totemic noticed it, and I didn't (how clumsy of me). Is the icon supposed to appear automatically or do I have to activate it?

Another question: it will be almost a year since JHM (the Music herald) last posted here in the forums. Is it possible for me to apply to that position once the deadline (if there's any) is reached? I'm asking this, since Arha can manage two subforums.

edited 13th Sep '15 8:25:44 AM by Quag15

For some reason, the icon needs to be installed by the administrators manually.

Yes, we'll need to revise the Music herald position too.