Examples Bordering on Testosterone Poisoning? NEW CLOCK: Rated M For Manly

Guy flicks are no more broad than [1]s, and we have a page for that.

Yes. I'm still in favour of splitting "works that appeal generally to men" (i.e. Spear Counterpart to Chick Flick) to Guy Flick, and let the "T-Rex wrestling pirates" examples to go under an "over-the-top manliness" trope, named after one of the existing tropes. That is, we merge the two and relegate one to be a redirect of the other. For this I'm willing to do the curating.

There's two different issues here.

1) First I think "Guy Flick" is risking being well... a list of every movie not made to be a Chick Flick or a Family Film. Because men are (unfairly) the "default" audience that is catered to when not catering to a different one.

However it is very true this trope is being inappropriately used. Looking over the listing in this trope there are a LARGE number of items that have zero business being on this page. Something like Lord Of The Rings has no business on there especially the film examples. The films very obviously playing up Aragorn and Legolas as Mr. Fanservice while Tolkien gave all the attention to those nice hobbits. I'm getting off topic though I could find other examples.

The problem is I don't think they represent some Trope-lite version of Rated M for Manly they are just Not An Example. Anything without some explanation to the general tone of the work or a specific character should be deleted because its of zero value.

2) All of this is entirely separate from issues with Testosterone Poisoning. Which yeah, I'm not sure the difference between parody and played straight is far enough on this trope. Part of the point of Rated M for Manly is that this isn't just run of the mill man. There's exaggeration built into the first trope to begin with, does simply exaggerating it more make it a new trope. I'm not leaning towards that. One might use the name Testosterone Poisoning for something else; like incurring a negative/uncomfortable/sarcastic reaction from other characters in the story but that doesn't jive at all with say the current forms picture for example.

So yeah in short seems like folding Testosterone Poisoning into Rated M for Manly is the best way to go. Keeping Rated M because its the more prevalent and is bringing more people into the wiki. Also "poisoning" is somewhat condemnatory.

edited 14th Dec '11 1:29:22 AM by gs

See now, I don't find either name that much better than the other. Testosterone Poisoning is a bit funnier, but yes, seems a bit condemnatory.

I still don't find the two all that distinct tropes.

I suppose it is difficult to tell a parody from a straight example and given the length of time this thread has been open, should we make a page action crowner?

I see the following options 1. Clean up and refinement of the two tropes 2. Merge the tropes under one name or the other (likely Rated M for Manly because its wider usage) 3. Rename Rated M for Manly to'Guy Flick' and adjust the definition as neccessary. This option would leave Testostrone Poisoning alone. 4. The obligatory 'do nothing' option.

I wouldn't be against a merge.

A poll sounds good.

To recap: Basically, both the tropes simultaneously cover two types of "manliness". On the extreme ends these would be: Duke Nukem-style over-the-top manliness; and manly-tears inducing men-centred drama. A third type emerged lately: the Spear Counterpart to Chick Flick.

We need to find a way so that these two tropes can accommodate all types without being inconsistent, redundant, or both. Usually this means repurposing (and renaming, if necessary) one trope and migrating the examples that were once relevant to the other, optimised trope.

Shall we start a crowner then?

in this case, however, I think both names imply too similar an idea.

We should, the thread is quite old.

"Testosterone Poisoning" sounds slightly negative, though.

I think Rated M for Manly and Testosterone Poisoning are both good as they're currently defined, honestly. Rated M for Manly is the Spear Counter Part to Chick Flick and is (as explained on Chick Flick) "is a genre of movie which is nebulously defined, not by its content so much as its market". If it's aimed at men as the intended audience, then it's Rated M for Manly. Testosterone Poisoning, parodying over the top manliness, is only vaguely related.

Of course, they could both use a good cleanup to properly sort the examples and make the description clearer.

edited 5th Jan '12 1:03:15 PM by NativeJovian

except that the name sounds like it is a snow clone of rated m for money. a trope based on the idea that there is unneeded gore. I had them the wrong way around because of it.

True, we might have to rename the trope once it's merged.

You know, I think there is a difference (although renaming one or both would still be a good idea). This trope is when entire works are dedicated to being for guys (basically the Spear Counterpart to a chick flick or romance novel). Testosterone Poisoning would be for simply an element of parodying masculinity in a work that might otherwise be about something else entirely. The two can overlap though.

For example, Die Hard is rated m for manly. The Venture Bros is not that trope, but Brock as a character is testosterone poisoning.

edited 17th Feb '12 10:57:16 AM by DragonQuestZ

That sounds like a good distinction, but then the straight/parody aspects wouldn't matter anymore for which trope it is.

They would. Again, an entire work is the Rated M trope. If it's played straight, it's not Poisoning. If it has just one element that is parody, that element is Poisoning.

How many elements does it take before it is "the entire work"?

What of characters that are obviously intended to be "exaggerated/parodied personifications of manliness in personality and appearance", like Fullmetal Alchemist's Alex Armstrong and Mahou Sensei Negima's Jack Rakan?

edited 17th Feb '12 2:04:45 PM by MarqFJA

Vote for keeping/clarifying two separate tropes: "stuff that is stereotypically masculine to appeal to guys" and "parodies of exaggerated masculinity". Yes, there's lots of the former. Doesn't make it not a trope.

The premise counts, not the number of elements. If the premise is plain mainly, it's not poisoning.

Characters are elements of a work, and thus count as poisoning.

Someone needs to fix that Western Animation tab

Hmm. Looking over the description for Rated M for Manly as well as the heavy X Just X on the oldest version of the page the Internet Archive has, I'm starting to wonder if it really was intended to be a form of Guy Flick (or "the whole work" being manly), but a combination of an unclear description and the alleged distinction with Testosterone Poisoning has led to it being misperceived. Testosterone Poisoning is not a parody of the Guy Flick, but a parody of the whole definition society has of "manliness" in general. Playing that definition straight wouldn't really be a trope, though I'm sure I'll get disagreement on that, but playing it straight in a particular, obvious way, like letting it define an entire work, would be.

edited 4th Mar '12 1:32:58 AM by MorganWick

I like that interpretation! We can even retain the names...

I would actually say that Rated M for Manly doesn't really work, since the trope namer is actually an example of Testosterone Poisoning, which would explain a lot of the misuse.

When it comes to at least movies that fit the trope, I hear them simply referred to as "Guy Flick", as a counterpart to "Chick Flick".

I like the trope's name just the way it is. And Guy Flick? I don't like the sound of that.