Merge: ImplacableMan vs TheJuggernaut: The Juggernaut

The Implacable Man is slowed by obstacles, but finds a way to deal with them. The Juggernaut goes right through them as though they never existed in the first place.

Also, regarding the crowner entry listing specific descriptions, as far as I can tell nothing in either trope indicates that they have to be an enemy.

Seconding both of the above

Tweaked the descriptions. If they look okay, then I think we're done here.

No, the difference would be more evident if it was a character trope. As a plot trope, you're assuming bullets even exist in the setting, much less are used.

Tropes Are Flexible, they should be written with as many scenarios in mind, and when all you need to change one trope into another is to add more to it, as how Implacableman and The Juggernaut are currently defined, that's a problem.

You don't understand that Juggernaut was pretty much proposed as Implacableman "but more", it is right there in the description and always has been. The descriptions don't need "tweaking" they need an overhauls or one needs to go! Has there ever been such a persistent case to keep two samey pages even though The Same But More is clearly against our policy to the point we have a page explaining it? I'm pretty sure this debate happened on the Cut List too.

Consensus is strongly against merging. A clear line between the two has been drawn.

edited 30th May '12 1:10:14 AM by troacctid

Calling crowner: Tweak the descriptions to clarify the difference between the two tropes.

I can verify that the trope descriptions have been modified, and they appear reasonable, with clear demarcation lines between the two. If others agree, I think we are done here.

There was a wick check confirming that the two tropes are pretty much interchangeable as they are and that the few instances where they weren't used as such were when the two were doing completely different things.

The descriptions may be tweaked, but I won't be surprised if this shows up again later, much like it has before, much like "nightmare fuel before it" because the underlying problem has neither been fixed nor acknowledged.

That can be resolved by cleaning up the wicks. 'Tweaking the description' is only the first step. We need to clean up the wicks to truly resolve this. Otherwise the problem continues and we WILL be discussing this again later.

BTW, I can't find the tweaking in the history. What was changed?

edited 1st Jun '12 8:13:37 PM by ChaoticNovelist

I think the key difference between the two is that Implacable Man refers to defense, The Juggernaut refers to offense.

In the sense of, Implacable Man just won't go down no matter what you throw at him, while The Juggernaut will just curbstomp any barrier or defense you put in his face.

In other words, a character who can survive a missile barrage and keep walking is a Implacable Man, a character who can destroy buildings to get his target is a Juggernaut.

Example: The Terminator would be an Implacable Man, because he's really damn hard to take down, but NOT a Juggernaut, because his attacks are survivable.

Is anyone looking at the wicks? That's the most important part of this.

Fullmetal Alchemist is listed on both pages, and provides the distinction between them very clearly: It has four of the Homonculi listed on the Implacable Man page, but only Sloth is listed as The Juggernaut. Pretty obvious why: the others are simply have Healing Factor (in Bradley/Wrath's case Super-Reflexes to avoid damage), that helps them continue on their quest, but they can be damaged or even permanently killed by conventional means, such as guns and knives. It takes a lot, but possible. Sloth on the otherhand shrugged off tank shells from up close, and Mayor General Armstrong couldn't even scratch him with her sword.

So the Implacable Man can be killed easily by exploiting it's weakness (such as Combustion Man from Avatar The Last Airbender, who was killed by Butt-Monkey-Badass Normal Sokka when he hit CM on his third-eye tattoo with his boomerang), while The Juggernaut simply doesn't have such a thing as a weakness. They had to be beaten down by brute overwhelming force.

To me it seems The Juggernaut is not The Same But More to Implacable Man, but if anything it's rather a subtrope of it. I think they shouldn't be merged, but have the descriptions and examples cleared up.

edited 9th Aug '12 7:36:42 AM by Werebazs

Subtrope. Why didn't I think of that? It does make sense. Implacable meaning 'relentless' and both of them share this quality.

I also like what you said about the FMA examples. The difference is defense but there are different natures of defense: healing factor, super reflexes, and nigh invulnerability. Any of them or other factors could make someone implacable but only Sloth-level defense is the juggernaut

Are we done here?

I don't know if anyone looked through the wicks yet

Clocking.

So besides the wicks, what is left to do here?

The wicks. And with 2200+ ones, as well as a very fine distinction, I am not sure how it could happen.

Meh, this has languished long enough.