Spider-Man General Discussion

Careful. That character might end up being Gwen.

One Strip! One Strip!

I vote for the Burgler

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

OMD won't go away and it can't be moved on from, because it did lasting damage to the main continuity and Peter's character. I mean there's no continuity between Kraven's Last Hunt and the Peter of the Dan Slott era. Peter is married in the Kraven's Last Hunt era and Quesada hasn't gone George Lucas and made the reprints into a single-and-living-together Peter and MJ. Not yet anyway. Slott is also bringing Clone Saga stuff but Peter and MJ being married was a fundamental part of that. Now Spider-Geddon has totems and stuff from the JMS-era. So that stuff about the OMD and Mephisto bargain keeping the canon the same is clearly BS. I mean you expect to me believe that Kraven's Last Hunt, one of the greatest Spider-Man stories ever, exists in a quantum state where the one that is reprinted is married and the one referred to after OMD is one where Peter and MJ is single.

I honestly think that the marriage won't be back in 616 continuity again. I mean I don't think they should have removed it but now that it's done and now it's more than ten years later, I think that ship has sailed and since we have these alternate versions where Peter is married and so on, all I am asking is for somewhere down the line they write a non-continuity finale, Spider-Man's own ''Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" and I can accept the Dan Slott as the Post-Crisis Spider-Man or whatever latest reboot DC labels itself. What I want is for Post-OMD Peter to remember that deal with Mephisto, to remember that he was married and that he traded that for an altered reality one where his Aunt is alive and happy, and that Harry Osborn is alive. Only then, will I feel that the continuity is healed. I want some catharsis against Mephisto, i.e. so Spider-Man should team up with Strange or something and kick his ass, a la that Strange and Doom "Triumph and Torment" story. That would give people some catharsis and assuage some frustration as it is.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Nov 8th 2018 at 6:31:39 AM

I remember shortly after OMD came out, this part of a post-OMD interview had Quesada say that everything besides the marriage still happened as written except for Harry living. He then backpedaled once a fan brought up MJ's pregnancy and the loss of Baby May, saying that never happened.

The Protomen enhanced my life.

Guilt Crisis of Two Worlds: Peter teams up with himself from the original timeline where he did not magically retcon his marriage.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

Eventually the people running Marvel will be the ones who want the marriage back because no one in their right mind would like or accept OMD.

So its an eventuality that Mephisto's deal will be fucked over.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

I mean, hasn't Nick Spencer's current run even made fun of OMD? Like, he had somebody write a paper about making a deal with Mephisto and it was called "the saddest thing ever."

The marriage will be back. Ten years may have passed, but people still talk about OMD as if it were still fresh, Marvel have teased references to it in books like Spidey/Deadpool, Mephisto is being used as a recurring Spidey villain meddling with Ben Reily and Kaine, we had Renew Your Vows out for a couple of years, and Stan Lee's newspaper strip has kept Peter and MJ married virtually all decade. When you look at things, we've never actually went a year without Peter being married. it's restoration is an inevitability.

Preview of Amazing Spider-Man#9

Edited by Zarius on Nov 9th 2018 at 2:23:59 AM

Ultimately the law of asylum-runners will take root and the marvel fans who hated OMD will grow up and become comics writers and editors and then undo it, similar to Quesada and Co who ran the asylum for when they saw and identified with Peter when they were kids or adolescents.

Still, the fact is one wrong doesn't justify another. Sure, the marriage in the 616 era was a Jim Shooter dictated editorial fiat to cash in on the unexpected publicity of Stan Lee marrying the pair in the newspaper comic which the media picked up (which considering it was Pre-Death of Superman, might well have inspired the latter when they pulled that stunt. It probably might have inspired Clark and Lois getting married for real in the New 52). And yes a lot of writers and others disagreed with that decision at the time because of how sudden it was, but once it's done it's done. Shooter doing it doesn't justify Quesada doing it. Quesada doing it doesn't justify someone later bizarrely retconning everything in the Dan Slott era and after that either.

To be frank there's not a lot to change in the Slott era. I mean the fact is that most of his stories aren't really about Peter Parker, they are about Spider-Man as a collective legacy and yada yada yada. That's why so much of it deals with Alternate Spideys. Spider-Island is the high point of that for example. His version of Doctor Octopus (who has nothing in common with the old one) is The Protagonist of his run. It's all about him and Peter's pretty passive in that story.

Sorry, just a side note here, but: Lois and Clark didn't get married in the New 52. They got married in the '90s, post-Crisis era. And then when Flashpoint hit, the post-Crisis Lois and Clark were trapped in one of Brainiac's bubbled cities and, in order to save the multiverse, went through a portal through time to stop the original Crisis, resulting in the return of the full multiverse. And then they were placed back on Earth, which had subsequently been rebooted by Flashpoint into the New 52 Earth, meaning that there were now two Lois and Clarks, one young and unmarried and one older and married and with a son.

And then both of them merged together and their timelines merged, but that's a whole other thing.

DC terminology is confusing to me. It took me forever to work out that Crisis on Infinite Earths was about. And I prefer the standalone DC stuff (killing joke, Tower of Babel and so on) to the regular stuff. My point is that MJ married Peter before Clark and Lois married in the regular continuity and my feeling is that it inspired the latter. MJ-Peter happened in 1987 and Lois-Clark's post-crisis wedding happened in 1996. Just like Osborn and Kingpin were businessman-criminals before Luthor and inspired the latter (Kingpin especially) rather than the other way around.

That's something people don't talk about. How Marvel inspired and influenced DC especially the direction it took post-60s. Everyone says Goblin is like the Joker, except the Joker at the time of GG's first appearance was a harmless clown and so on. Luthor at that time still stole cakes. And Gwen Stacy's death was a decade before Killing Joke and the one where Jason Todd died. And I think Spider-Man inspired both Batman and Superman a lot. Like Nightwing cutting off and becoming a teenage hero in his own right probably did work better under the shadow of Spider-Man's success and so on.

It wasn't just that Marvel inspired DC, it was also that writers moved between Marvel and DC and, by the early '70s, Marvel had become more popular than DC. It used to be that DC outsold everyone with Superman and Batman, but then the X-Men became a huge hit, which, in turn, inspired DC to make New Teen Titans.

I'm not quite sure that Spider-Man's marriage inspired the Lois and Clark marriage, simply because of the latter was nine years after the first, but I think Spider-Man definitely was an inspiration for the post-Crisis Superman comic being more of a soap opera, with Clark struggling to tell Lois about his secret identity and so on.

In a bit of a weird coincidence, while the Spider-Marriage was rushed so that it would coincide with the newspaper's version of Peter and MJ marrying, the Lois and Clark marriage was slowed down because they wanted it to coincide with them marrying on the new show Lois & Clark — but since, again, the show was brand new, that wouldn't happen until four years later. So in order to delay things, they killed Superman off. And then, when the show finally had them get married, the comics then had to rush the marriage, too.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 9th 2018 at 9:45:40 AM

Yeah, and if want to dwell on in an ever eerier fashion, what complicated matters is the Lois and Clark tv show actually had two weddings, the first being a fake out involving a clone of Lois who ate frogs. One of Marvel's attempts at getting rid of the Spider-Marriage in the 90s around the exact same time also involved a storyline with clones.

Incidentally, the animated Spider-Man series at the time also made Peter single again at the end of it's run by revealing the version Mary Jane he married was in fact a clone.

Edited by Zarius on Nov 10th 2018 at 9:15:18 AM

One problem in general with such romances and this is true even of Scott/Jean and other couples is that if you pile on too much melodrama about the couple Will They or Won't They? or the tragedy of why they can't be together and the on-off thing then people tend to have doubts whether they will ever work as a couple to start with. Like in the Fox cartoon, and the Raimi movies, you spend too much time with Peter pining for MJ when that didn't happen in the comics, that there's barely any time to see them banter and interact with each other as a couple and be in a relationship. This is also the case with Scott/Jean where it's been ages since we actually see them engage in a relationship for a long time for us to care a great deal about the romance or so on. I think Ultimate Spider-Man with Bendis worked better. Where you had so many issues with them together and having their own banter and so on, that it actually did feel like a romance.

Peter and MJ broke up like five times in Ultimate Spider-Man. One time we don't even learn why they broke up. He just dates Gwen for a while and then gets back together with MJ when the Chameleon shatters Gwen's fragile sense of trust as an orphaned/abandoned kid.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

Yeah but between Issues 13-32, Issues 40-70, and then after the Ultimate Clone-Saga to ultimatum (some 30 issues). That's some 80 issues with them together. That's what I mean. I know this because I re-read and skimmed the Ultimates stuff yesterday. Compare that to the Raimi Trilogy where they hooked up at the end of 2 and then had a functional relationship for the opening sequence of 3 before Harry Goblin jumps Peter and the Symbiote crashes, which starts a chain of events that estranges them and makes the ending of 3 where they reunite at the end unbelievable.

Newspaper MJ is such a pro...Peter essentially was the cause of a helicopter crash that destroyed the Mammon Theatre, which MJ works for, putting her play on indefinite hiatus, and she's not even mad, she's just happy to come home now that her movie tour is done.

I remember reading the newspaper strip before I saw the Raimi movies and then got into comics later. Haven't read it much since then, albeit off and on I do look at it. It seems repetitive but I rather like a Spider-Man that's light and funny and not all melodramatic 99% of the time as it is in the 616.

I rather liked how the newspaper strip handled Mysterio. It had an Origin that was unique and different. He was a special effects man whose work was damaged when Peter confused one of his effects for the real thing and sabotaged it and that drove him to vengeance against Spider-Man. I mean it's still cheesy but also it gives Mysterio a dimension as a Mad Artist when the major problem with him is that there doesn't seem to be any connection between his gimmick and his super-villainy. Why would such a gifted visual effects artist rob banks? There it makes sense and Mysterio also feels a little scary and out-there.

I always feel that Mysterio is the villain with the most untapped potential in Spider-Man comics. He has a cool visual design and motif...and yes I mean the Fishbowl Head is cool...but nobody quite knows what to do with him and his special-effects powers. Ideally he should be a mix of Scarecrow (especially the one in the Arkham games) and Dr. Destiny (specifically the one in Gaiman's Sandman and the Justice League episode). I am not looking forward to the new MCU movie where he's going to appear. If you cast Jake Gyllenhaal then you have a problem with Marquee Alter Ego, because he or his agents will want "face time" when that's counter to a character whose main appeal is that helmet and unreachable quality. Still let's see what they do with him.

I disagree. While I agree that Mysterio's concept definitely lends itself to him being this really evil and dangerous mind rapist, it's not a take I really like. I think in part because there's a relative absence of villains who are intelligent and not also super-evil, and I think there's especially a trend to have "trickster" type characters end up as Jigsaw-like psychos (thinking here of some of the recent takes on The Riddler).

Which is why I like the The Spectacular Spider-Man take on Mysterio. He's seemingly not all that evil, nor is he insane. Instead, he's basically a villainous take on a LARP-er/ role play gamer. His character acts like a hammy Silver Age villain, but Beck himself is a pretty normal, nondescript guy. And he commits crimes because that's his "stage" (I didn't say he was a great guy) and because his tech is funded by villains who pay him to commit crimes.

It makes for a nice counterpoint to how Peter is quippier and more aggressive in-costume. And since one of Peter's greatest "weapons" is annoying his opponents with banter/insults, it makes for a formidable opponent when they are only pretending to be phased by his insults (Mysterio) or can quip back just as good (i.e. the Spectacular version of the Green Goblin).

Edited by Hodor2 on Nov 10th 2018 at 4:38:53 AM

FYW the fishbowl has been confirmed to be in the movie.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

MCU redeemed.

That I agree with. I don't want Mysterio to be a Jigsaw type character. What I want is more creativity and imagination in what they do with the character and gimmick. I only suggested those options as a reference because it was a case of villains weaponizing imagination disorienting surroundings and so on. I guess a modern way is to have Mysterio put Spider-Man into Inception-like distortions or something. Mysterio as a Mind-Rapist has been done in the comics with him being involved in Old Man Logan (a story I don't care for at all and am glad that the far superior film mostly ignored) and one Daredevil story. I also don't care at all for Ultimate Mysterio who is Anonymous/Julian Assange or some such thing. But that's a problem because I think in most cases the Ultimate Rogues Gallery wasn't good. I think the Chameleon Twins were the coolest reimagining, and Ultimate Shocker while having a bad costume was unexpectedly compelling, but rest all were mediocre to poorly-executed-good-ideas.

At the same time I feel Mysterio should be his own man. Him being some guy pushed by other villains feels limiting. Making him a passionate VFX and genius is something that could be explored more. That's something the Newspaper Strip did and it didn't do it by making him a killer since the newspaper strip is very light-hearted and quite light on the violence.

The fishbowl being there is good but the fact is that an actor like Gyllenhaal means Marquee Alter Ego i.e. face-time similar to Topher Grace's Venom, where a villain famous for his scary face ends up showing his human mug way too much because the director felt he needs to show the face after giving him a big paycheck.

Hey, I loved Homecoming. I think it was a pretty fun movie, and best Spider-Man film since Spider-Man. I mean the movie ran into problems in the final third with Vulture being best friend's Dad and so we have a replay of Spider-Man-Osborn, Spider-Man Octopus and Spider-Man Connors from the earlier films. I also think that having every Spider-Man villain know his identity or him being cavalier about it removes a lot of suspense and tension. But that aside, Vulture and his gang were good villains and the high-school and superhero career balance was good.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Nov 10th 2018 at 3:03:27 AM

I was thinking that about Ultimate Spidey’s rogues gallery

The extreme decompression means a lot less time is spent with them ironically for all that stories are longer

A lot of characters are thrown in and have nothing much down with them like the first Ultimate Scorpion.

And big bad Norman himself only really worked for me whenever he wasn’t the goblin.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

You ever think about trying to shorten your posts? You type a lot of stuff.

And yes Marquis Alter Ego is a thing but there’s no point in worrying & fearing. I have enough optimism that he’ll have the fishbowl on for most of the affair.

Even then Mysterio is clearly a villain who’s identity will be hidden until the big reveal until the end so chances are he’s gonna have it on for most of the time when in costume.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 10th 2018 at 3:14:53 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

The idea of Norman Osborn becoming a literal fireball throwing Goblin is one of those cool-ideas-on-paper-but-terrible-on-second-thought things. Call it Fridge Badness. I mean the Goblin Glider those pumpkin bombs, those razor bats had an aesthetic and charm. It also meant that Spider-Man and Goblin fights were aerial, taking place in the skies and so on, and the smallness of that glider allowed GG to navigate small spaces in buildings, caves, as well as big ones. Here Goblin is just the Hulk with Fireballs and it makes every fight into a brawl with no variation and flexibility. Ultimate Kingpin is just a Villain Mary Sue...and basically an excuse for Bendis to audition as a Daredevil writer. Which worked by the way so props to him. Ultimate Octopus is interesting but also too generic. I feel that Dr. Octopus works best in the classic mould where he's kind of a ham-mad scientist, trying to make us feel sorry for him (as in the case of Spider-Man 2) or making him a sociopath takes away anything entertaining about him and don't get me started on the Dan Slott one where he's basically Kraven from the Last Hunt.

Ultimate Venom sucks. I mean again interesting and it made the alien costume thing grounded and closer to home but making Peter the child of a super-genius scientist takes away a lot of what defines him as the everyman Working-Class Hero and it reduces the role of Ben and May. And Eddie Brock is this proto-incel who isn't someone I care about enough to like or hate. The best version of Venom, or rather the Symbiote suit is the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon where the Symbiote is the sentient bad guy with a Yandere fix on Peter.

I do like Aaron Davis' Prowler though. He was cool, and interesting and I felt that in the Miles Morales series it was a huge mistake to kill him early. Ideally he should have become the next Kingpin and lord of the underworld, and that would have given Miles and his Dad angst and so on about clearing the family name and living in peace, and Davis could be something like Stringer Bell and so on. The Second Scorpion as this Cartel guy maybe is a little too MS-13 in its over-the-top Hispanic gangster thing but an interesting reimagining.