Spider-Man General Discussion

So, I found a screenshot of the Paul scene online, and I've gotta say, comparing it to the Nuremberg Defence is some asinine hyperbole. Especially since, from the way the scene is written, he doesn't mean it as a defence. He says it as a warning! He says that his father lied to him and manipulated him, and that his willingness to follow order led to his world being destroyed, and that he has to live with the guilt of that.

I get that Paul is hated. But come the fuck on, comparing his speech here to the frigging Nuremberg Defence is a massive stretch. You can take issue with the attempt to make people sympathize with someone who aided in genocide, wilfully misrepresenting the scene to imply that he was trying to excuse his actions is kinda crap.

This bit where MJ is trying to create some equivalence between Paul and Peter is pretty awful.

Like no, just no MJ.

@34423 That's Spider-Man vs. the Kingpin!

I had a feeling you would get it.

Sure, the idea that feeling guilt makes someone a good person is silly. It's simplistic, and it does end up being used to let people get away with some awful behaviour. "Sure, he hits me, but he feels bad about it after." That's not how it works.

I think one of the most important phrases I've ever seen in a superhero comic is Ms. Marvel's mission statement: "Good is not a thing you are. It's a thing you do." I haven't read any of this Spider-Man series, I know basically nothing about Paul. But he did something terrible, and to be good, he needs to be doing something to atone for it. I don't know if he has or not.

I'm just saying, the scene that was being discussed earlier didn't come across as him defending himself. It came across the exact opposite, saying that following orders without questioning them led to the worst possible outcome, and that MJ needs to be careful not to follow orders that will lead her to do something she can't take back.

People can debate the quality of the scene, but I think it's important to be fair and to judge it based on what is actually said, rather than a huge and deliberate misinterpretation.

Tiamity's true identity is Nick Lowe confirmed. Nick always says the vast majority are 'misreading scenes' in this dire, dire run.

(just kidding buddy)

It's not the Nuremberg defense but it's still fucking weird to try and make Paul sympathetic. He's such a nothing character that the only notable trait about him is that he helped enact a genocide.

Was tricked into enacting a genocide. Or at least that's how they're positioning it.

They're not entirely successful in making him The Atoner, but I see what they're aiming for.

I can't be Nick Lowe. I would assume he's actually reading the comics. (I know someone is about to make a joke that they're not sure he does read them. But now you can't. Mwah-haha. With trolling like that, maybe I am Nick Spencer.)

Like I said, it's fair to criticize the scene. I just like when criticism is rooted in an honest reading of a text. If a story is actually shitty, there's no need to be dishonest about it.

Right, so when people talk about Paul, the question should be, are they doing a good job showing how he's trying to atone? I can't answer that, because I know so little about the run. The only thing I see is people declaring him The Worst Villain Ever, and wishing for him to suffer a gruesome death. So I honestly have no idea how he's trying to atone, because I'm pretty sure anything he does will automatically be spun into something terrible. The way people talk about him, dude could be developing a cure for AIDS, and everyone would say he's trying to fuck with people's health. (Side note, a cure for AIDS might be within sight! Which is very awesome news and why I used it as an example.)

My only issue is: how do we off him without making him a Gwen?

. . . Are you saying Paul is trans? Good for her!

Hold on. People speculate that Spider-Gwen is trans, particularly after Across the Spider-Verse. New theory, Paul is his world's Gwen Stacy, she just never had a chance to come out and transition.

Edited by Tiamatty on Apr 25th 2024 at 7:30:19 AM

I'm mostly apathetic towards Paul. He's just there to be an obstacle and cuck Spider-Man. Like, as far as I'm concerned, 616 Spider-Man is a bad joke, so I can't really bring myself to get angry at Paul.

On the contrary, the writers get a modicum of respect for still trying to make him a thing even after 2 years.

He looks like a smug douchebag with that hair of his, but I think that's what the writers are going for.

I'm more invested in Ultimate Spider-Man's premier romance. Uncle Ben and Jameson.

x4

Well, if you've seen the panel we've been talking about, then you've seen the entire length of his attempts to atone.

Edited by Saiga on Apr 25th 2024 at 5:54:38 AM

To answer the question about Kingpin, he was the main villain of a Spidey story pretty recently.

In Spencer's run, a major plot point was Boomerang and Spidey being friends, and him moving in with Peter and Randy, and it was revealed that Boomerang was strong armed into working for Kingpin, to get him a magic tablet that he uses to revive his son.

Richard Fisk appears in the Wells run for a brief second too.

His dirtbag son

Yeah I know that one, and despite how big a deal Kingpin becoming mayor and making sure it looks like he's aligned with Spider-Man, he's still not the biggest fish in the pond as Kindred makes it clear.

Hey, I’ve been catching up on Miguel O’Hara, Spider-Man 2099 on unlimited

Why has he been exclusively dealing with future versions of classic movie monsters?

He fought a zombie horde, a moon Dracula, and a corporate werewolf

I guess, but Kindred doesn't really do anything. He has vague control over a lot of the villains, but when Ock puts his mind to it, even that is dealt with in no time at all.

Yeah, but that wasn't Kingpin who got one over Kindred was it?

Like, I've noticed a LOT of stories I've read with Kingpin have him overshadowed or otherwise reduced to a Big Bad Wannabe. It's pretty funny.

I think classic Bond villain esque Kingpin in the Lee Romita era is the most I've seen him as the Big Bad.

Probably because there's no possible way Marvel in it's current state is going to let him be fighing the kinds of problems he was originally used to criticize.

Edited by chino514 on Apr 25th 2024 at 4:03:24 AM

I think it mostly depends on how important you think the other bad guys are. I have no respect for Kindred at all, so the Kingpin and Boomerang stuff matters way more to me.

If you're really into the clone Harry stuff I bet you'd have a different judgement on all that.

Kindred is the biggest and clearest proof of how Spencer was TRYING to undo OMD and all the shit that came with it but got bullied into not doing so and how that affected the way his run turned out. Like for a decent while, Spencer's run was fairly brisk in pace and knocking out the plotlines left and right, right up til it came time to reveal who Kindred actually was. And it's very obvious who he was meant to be - the real Harry, now a vengeful spirit back from Hell after dying in "Best of Enemies", with BND Harry being a clone that Mephisto made to help keep up the OMD illusion - but the story that would've come from required confronting and undoing OMD. Which editorial refused to do and when they realized Spencer was doing that, they began fucking him and his run over, turning it into a dragged out mess by ripping all of Spencer's plans out from under him, including changing who Kindred was.

I imagine that using the end of his run to finally take "Sin's Past" out back and telling it to look at the rabbits was Spencer's consolation prize before he left.

Edited by immortaleditor on Apr 25th 2024 at 2:02:46 AM

I’m still not sure how Kindred did what he did do with the reveal who Kindred was

Yeah, the obvious change in what Kindred is blatantly shows in how everything the character did before Sinister War no longer makes sense.

The explanation that he was Harry as a Demon of Human Origin handily answered all the questions, as being a demon/spirit meant he had all sorts of magic powers that would allow him to do all the stuff he did - particularly the big moment in Last Remains where he kills and revives Peter over-and-over. But changing him to the Stacy Twins and them as clones made by AI Harry meant he no longer had a Hand Wave for how he did any of that, nor a reason for why everyone was treating him like a demon and not just two losers in costumes. It especially bungles up all the "don't say my name" stuff; Kindred being super-protective over his real name makes sense if he is A) a demon and thus subject to the "I know your true name" folklore and B) Harry and thus wanting to keep his true identity hidden until the proper moment. But now there's no reason for that, so it all just becomes the Stacy Twins doing some baffling "Scooby-Doo" Hoax.

I remember when Kindred randomly showed up in Absolute Carnage to have a chat with Norman Osborn, who at the time still thought he was Cletus Kasady.

It didn't say it outright, but their familiar tone made it very clear they were family, so much so that Norman momentarily reasserted control.

Well that's thrown out.