This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
85.176.108.96: Hey, my suggestion is to use this picture
◊: instead of Shana.
Narvi: Too big. Too bad, it's hilarious. Where is it from?
Citizen: Shana stays. The picture is from http://manga.clone-army.org/
. Moving on, see this page from Kodomo no Jikan for an example of anti-tsundere techniques in use.
Heyleto: This has been on my mind for a while, and I just want to get it off my chest: in Twilight Princess. during the bit where you become a wolf for the first time, much time was spent swearing at the screen and threatening Midna's life. Should I seek help?
Potman: Bill Watterson has himself stated that Calvin has a bit of a crush at Susie Derkins, and expresses this either by annoying her, or via a proxy (Hobbes). In my personal opinion, this qualifies him as a male example of this trope quite nicely.
Addition to Tsundere launched as Tsundere: From YKTTW
Black Humor: Sheogorath is not a Tsundere. Sheogorath is Ax-Crazy.
Adonic Meki: Can we get a line in the main page of this telling where the trope name comes from?
Looney Toons: Seconded.
ghostlightning: Sheryl Nome is getting attention for her tsundere behavior opposite Saotome Alto. The interesting thing is that he's equally alternating between tsun tsun and dere dere concerning her. It's like a dance. Ranka Lee, the other corner of the triangle has a more open affection for Alto.
Citizen: I'm thinking that Haruhi Suzumiya is a little too genki to be a tsundere...
Pavlov: Ever see that scene where she kicks the Computer Club president in the head from a standing leap? That was cool. But I think she's here because of the quantity of damage she can do. Lots of people want to destroy the world when they're angry but few can follow through.
Citizen: That's not what being a tsundere means. Anyway, compare her to other tsunderes, like Shana. It's all about the personality. Instead of the tsuntsun side, she has a genkigenki side.
Jisu: I say Haruhi's both — genki in her general life, but both tsuntsun and deredere in her relations with Kyon. See any scene where she's stewing jealously or musing unsurely, then immediately jumps back to the Genki Girl we know and love — specifically episodes 5 (3), 12 and 14 (6).
Citizen: Okay, I'll give you that, but Kyon? He's a Deadpan Snarker with Selective Obliviousness. I can sort of see what whoever wrote that is talking about, but it seems like too weak an example, so I'm removing it. Kyonko being a memetic genderswap, I'm not sure that belongs, either.
Smokie: I think Haruhi doesn't fit because she's not "violent<->affectionate". When she's unsure or something, she's mostly melancholic. Otherwise, she's in her usual Genki Girl attitude, which wouldn't be called "violent". I mean, she's rarely physically violent.. (Except when she actually attacks people for fun..). No, the more I think about it, the less I think she's a tsundere like we know them. She does have such moments (When she gave Kyon the umbrella, or when Kyon woke up from his coma/sleep/whatever in the hospital.) but it's generally too, how should I say that.. "Sociopathic Genki Girl" really hits it.I like what is written in the Four-Temperament Ensemble trope. I'm good with the edit you made Citizen, but I rephrased it.
Fast Eddie: One million unique IP's viewed our wiki on 24 APR, 2007. This entry (Tsundere) received the hit. We owe that to Tabbyclaw on an inbound link, which is a lot weird, 'cuz here is no one around here by that handle.
Ununnilium: "It's not that I liked your website or anything. I just had a spare millionth hit, is all."
Tabby: (Over a year later and doing a vanity Google) Not so weird; that was me.
Lale: I wanted to add song lyrics that seem dead on for this character, but I don't for the life of me know how to wrap the text around the picture.
Fast Eddie: Put it in. It should wrap all by itself. Elsewise, I'll have a look to see what's up.
Kasumi (Misty) from Pokemon, maybe? A mild case, but still...
Lale: She's got the bipolar thing, but canonically, she doesn't have a crush on the protagonist.
Cassius335: Debatable. She hasn't actually come out and said "I love you" on-screen (wrong kind of show), but there's a lot of hints that way... Most blatantly, "Misty's Song" from the first album: http://www.sendspace.com/file/arpfke
Also http://www.thepokemontower.com/mp3tunes/anmmarried.wav (From Ep 199, "The Heartbreak of Brock")
Anonymous: More debatable because most of the romantic hints indicated by Misty were 4kids dub only.
Pavlov: Hey, did anyone else catch episode 10 of Lucky Star? Just the other day in the ending segment, called Lucky Channel, one of the characters named Minoru Shiraishi came out of his shy shell and went completely bananas on the subject of Tsundere. He lectured on it, saying that originally the word meant a character who starts off hostile and eventually becomes affectionate, describing a change over time. And how now the term refers to the multiple faces of a character, hostile on the outside and affectionate on the inside. This guy ranted for nearly two minutes about this, how the viewers need to come up with a new term to replace the word Tsundere. Pretty funny stuff, but I swear, it was like the segment was written about this page!
Pavlov: And I just noticed that Jisu made an entry on this page for the same thing. (Sigh) Oh well, at least I added content.
Jisu: Sorry, I've got to defer credit; that example wasn't mine.
Ununnilium: Okay, why the extra "u" in Suzumiya Haruhi No Yuutsu?
osh: Long vowel, IIRC. It's better than those little hat indicators over it like Wikipedians seem fond of doing.
Jisu: I know "yuuutsu" looks weird, but it's how the Keyboard system works with how it's written. And the "little hat" is a macron, used in the Hepburn system, which Wikipedia has marked as the only one it wants to use.
Citizen: I say we compromise... by using neither. =P
dunerat: Reference on wiki's Hepburn preference? Note that Japan's official position is to use the 'u' for long vowels, not the older Hepburn system (although there are still plenty of signs written in Hepburn). It is both accurate and correct anyway, since it matches how the words are spelled, as opposed to Hepburn's dropping letters in favour of goofy symbols no one really understands anyway.
TJ Devil 02: Is there a separate trope for the male equivalent? When discussing the concept with friends, the behavior of Sean Mercer (John Wayne) in Hatari! comes to mind. Starts off hating the person, refuses to let himself get romantically involved, and very slowly warms up to her. By the last scene, they're married. (Justified in the movie, as Sean had been burned by an ex-fiancee and tried to swear off women.)
Lale: The Masochism Tango or Slap-Slap-Kiss.
Khym Chanur: That sounds like the male version of Defrosting Ice Queen, while a tsundere flips back a forth.
osh: Yup, lots of Jerks With A Heart Of Gold boyfriends in shoujo, but they ususally get defrosted.
Chuckg: Put a note in Katara's entry reflecting that her Tsundere tendencies have decreased a lot in season 2. (Sure, there's "The Chase", but the point of that episode was that everyone was tired, stressed, and flipping out over nothing.)
Lale: And the way she went from a fit of rage in CoD to bursting into tears to quietly bonding with her arch enemy was... what?
Chuckg: Within the normal human emotional range? Tsundere is when you emotionally blow hot and cold over everyday things, or nothing at all, and you do so regularly. Katara was, in that anything-but-regular set of circumstances, expressing anger at someone she had every reason and more to be angry with, and then weeping over the death of someone she had every weason to weep for (and hadn't allowed herself to weep for in far too long)... and then finally having Zuko, inadvertently or otherwise, play on that by going 'Hey, my mom was probably killed by Fire Lord Ozai too!'.
There's a middle ground between Tsundere and Emotionless Girl, after all, and reacting normally to prolonged extreme stress and deeply-rooted emotional hot buttons being drop-kicked isn't either. And given that she spends most of the rest of season 2 being the group's emotional anchor, especially during the desert arc, I think she's kinda outgrown her bipolar of Season 1. Her last real burst of bipolar is when Toph drives her to frothing rage over trivial causes in "The Chase" — after they made up from that, Katara's most often the one keeping the group hotheads grounded and making peace, not the one going off.
(add) Just remembered her last real outburst before that — when she went off on Jet. However, when your first love/crush turns out to be a borderline psychotic war criminal, and you have no idea he's reformed, its hardly 'blowing hot and cold' for no reason to go off on him like he still is a war criminal the next time you meet.
Basically, I don't see where somebody deserves the Tsundere label if there's actually a reason why they're violently mood swinging on someone, unless they do it all the time. Katara in season 2 qualifies for neither.
Lale: You realize there's nothing wrong with writing a Tsundere in your show? Relax.
Chuckg: Oh come on, Lale. Agree or don't agree, but getting on the 'You are disagreeing with me at greater length than I want to hear, therefore you must be an overwrought fan boy who needs to take a pill' trip is annoying.
Cassius335: Children, Children. Don't make me separate you.
I've copied some of the old text back into the example for the sake of clarity and preservation.
Lale: Actually, it's been justified out of qualifying.
Cassius335: Moving it here then. The original paragraph is one of my favourites and I'm not going to let it lost in the page history.
- Western Example: Katara of Avatar The Last Airbender has been frequently diagnosed by fans as bipolar. While she's been prone to bouts of personal Mood Whiplash since episode 1, what really cemented the label was a scene in episode 9 where she snaps at Aang for mastering a Waterbending move she just can't get, then instantly turns remorseful and apologetic, only to turn around within seconds and angrily insist, "No more apologies!"
- Although those tendencies notably decrease in frequency in season 2, in that her (more infrequent) mood swings appear to at least have actual causes, instead of being over minor things or nothing. Either it's the effects of increasing maturity or else she's simply growing accustomed to the stresses of the Heroic Questing lifestyle.
Cassius335 (cont.): Really, though, the best way to judge would be to actually watch the episodes in question. Characters's personality's do evolve (or devolve, as the case may be) over time...
Lale: Putting it back in in its shortest form, now that we have cleared things up: "These therefore usually come from the people who "don't know the meaning of the word trope". The whole point of tropes is that they work; that's why they're used so much. Use of tropes isn't a bad thing, so there's no reason to defend your favorite show by justifying its tropes."
Unknown Troper: (actually Known, but knows removing Avatar entries is a potentially dangerous thing and does not want a hit placed on him/her...that's right him/her, that's how paranoid this troper is >_>) I removed Katara's entry here entirely because I don't see how she's a Tsundere. She doesn't fit in with the other examples. As I understand it, Tsundere is for female characters who are lovestruck and giddy one minute, and violent and dangerous the next. Katara doesn't really match that while the other examples do. Hey Arnold's Helga really is the closest Western equivalent to a Tsundere personality and Katara is nothing like Helga. So Yeah...Katara as Tsundere? Not seein' it. She may have had some "bipolarishness" in the first season, but she's long grew out of that and it was never in the Tsundere style in the first place.
Fine, but neither is Toph. Toph's not bi-polar or anything like the other examples on this list. Her snarkiness makes her a Deadpan Loli.
- In Avatar The Last Airbender, Toph. She joins the team as a sarcastic, self-reliant Cute Bruiser. Somewhere along the line, she develops a crush on Sokka, who up to that point had been a frequent target of her snarking and pranks. Marking her as a true Tsundere, he continues to be the most frequent target of her snarking and pranks, while she keeps her affection totally secret.
Sunder The Gold: I originally put in Toph as an example, though I didn't do a good job of showing HOW I thought she was a Tsundere — namely her interactions with Sokka, her crush. Finding the example was gone, I put this up, but now I've placed it here because I'm unsure. Toph doesn't have the extreme "flipping hot/cold" aspect of some Tsundere, but otherwise seems to be a fit. Does this make her a Defrosting Ice Queen half-way through the process, or is there room in this trope for less "bipolar" examples?
Large Blunt Object: Deleted another Katara. NO, DAMMIT!
That Other 1 Dude: Defrosting Ice Queen was the originally meaning of "Tsundere" instead of the Slap-Slap-Kiss relationship that the page is currently about, so I don't think Toph would fit on this page as it is now.
Smokie: Toph is a Tsundere. Made my day. You're so great, tvtropes!
- And, just for a Cherry Tapping, Itoshiki visits a tsundere cafe (see below) in the last episode of the second season. Sadly, that visit is much too short.
...eh?
Solandra: Removed the Inuyasha example, as it's more like a Slap-Slap-Kiss situation on both sides (besides, they're already mentioned in Takahashi Couple). Also removed my long-ago Gravitation example upon further consideration, and also because the list is long enough as it is.
On a sidenote, I notice that some of the examples (a minority here, but still...) are more "girl is cranky towards everyone, but a complete mush-case around her love interest" rather than the described "girl (occasionally guy) flip-flops between crankiness and mushiness when dealing with her love interest." The tsundere concept is probably quite broad, but do these kind of examples really fit here? (The first, not the latter)
Much later: Did a rewrite of the body of the article to better organize the info that's been added on over time. Also removed some of the examples of characters who are nothing but lovestruck towards the people they love, because the main point of a tsundere is that she's "hot and cold" toward her love interest (one even linked the character's name to Yandere, which is the opposite of Tsundere!).
Chris X: Why is Soi Fon's entry removed?
I don't think Donna counts, honestly. For one thing, she's rarely if ever deredere, and for another, it's usually—well, always, actually—because she's being wound up by the Doctor, who deserves it anyway.
Sir Psycho Sexy: Would Keiko Yukimura count? Just want to check.
Runespoor: I don't see how the Naruto examples fit the bill, particularly Ino. The girl doesn't even have a love interest to be violent-mushy at - unless you count her crush on Sasuke, which is clearly not a case of tsundere-ness (she does the Clingy Jealous Girl routine and it's common knowledge for everyone that she likes him) or Chouji which, while their interaction fits the trope better, is at best very, very subtextual.
Also, we should precise who Sakura gets Tsundere about, because the list is making me think it means Part I Sakura who's in love with Sasuke in much the same way Ino is. If anything the trope fits her behaviour around Naruto. Again, we should make it clearer.
Unless someone disagrees I'll remove Ino and clears the Sakura->Naruto bit.
KJMackley: I had one of those lightbulb moments and thought that a specific quote from Christopher Titus would be perfect for the page. The quote that I replaced was kind of generic, though was common among the character type. If you don't like it, I'm okay if you replace it.
Otempora: Quick question — how do you pronounce "tsundere"? For the longest time I pronounced "Too-sun-druh", but now I've switched to "soon-dare-eh", which I think is closer.
KJMackley: I pronounce it Sun-Dure-Ay just because it rolls off the tongue easier then the phoenetic Tee Sun Dure.
Radical Taoist: KJ, you're pretty close. Japanese pronunciation is phonetic. The pronunciation following the hiragana is tsun-de-re, with both of the "e" vowels pronounced the same as in "check" and "tell". (It's like the vowel in "play" and "ray" except without the "y" glide at the end.) The "tsu" syllable is actually pronounced t'sue - you go from the t to the s without any vowel in between (for the linguistically minded, that's an aspirated voiceless interdental stop followed immediately by a voiceless interdental fricative).
Inkki Bookman: From watching a number of fansubs, the Japanese word tsundere sounds like it rhymes with the english word thunder as in (sun-durr).
...Don't we have a page for helpful notes on Japanese pronunciation?
dunerat: Correction: Tsu-n-de-re. It's a four mora word. Pronounced /tsɯ/-/n/-/de/-/ɺe/, or for non-IPA types as /tsoo/-/n/-/dā/-/rā/, although the trailing 'ā' in the last mora is often dropped in normal speed speech. Not sure where Radical Taoist got the "check" and "tell" examples from, that vowel is /ɛ/ (open-mid front unrounded) whereas the vowel in "play" is /e/ (close-mid front unrounded).
Can I propose changing the image? This one
◊ seems to encapsulate the concept so much more completely than a random picture of Shana.
- Narvi: That one's the original image. It's linked on the page, but it's too wide to use as an opener.
—- Sackett: Removed:
- Ishida Uryuu of Bleach is a fine male example, though in this case the focus is not romance but human relationships in general. Even though he obviously thinks of the rest of the gang as at least trusty comrades or even friends, and has demonstrated more than once that he's willing to do anything to protect them, he never admits to this, and most of the time he keeps insisting that he and Ichigo are enemies, he doesn't do things to help his friends but for personal reasons (says "I just hate men like him" after fending off a shinigami trying to molest Orihime), and whatever he does to help others is "no big thing" anyway. And then sometimes he forgets the act and is openly worried/relieved/grateful.
- Pretty sure he's just a Aloof Ally Jerk with a Heart of Gold
- I also removed Inu Yasha for the same reason... Inu Yasha?! A Tsun Dere?! I think that word does not mean what you think it means.
- Actually, Ishida is pretty unanimously regarded as tsundere in the Japanese fandom, to the point that parodies and such were made about it. So Yeah...
Meta Four: I've moved the Gunnerkrigg examples to the recently-launched Mood-Swinger article. They're a better fit there. There may be some more examples that belong in Mood-Swinger rather than here, but I don't know enough about these series to say for sure.
I'm thinking we should add a separate section for male characters.
Thirding. —Azz (also, Katy Perry's Hot n Cold is a great music male example.)
Dear person who doesn't capitalize or punctuate: Please leave the "Nancy" quote alone. Seeing as both quotes are equally appropriate to the trope (and they are) Elinor Wylie (what with her added Older Than Television mojo) trumps Garth Brooks any day.
On the contrary, while not the best of quotes, Brooks trumps Wylie. Both because it is, in fact, more appropriate to the trope, and because it is better written of the two.
- It's equally appropriate...but ROFL at it being "better written." Admittedly, Garth Brooks is a decent songwriter, and "Nancy" wasn't Wylie's best. But gentle raillery, semi-creative metaphors, and proof that the trope is Older Than Television...beat Glurge and clichés by a long shot.
Those metaphors are not "semi-creative". They are sentimental cliches. At best.
- As opposed to the Garth Brooks song...which goes beyond sentimental into Glurge, and which is even more clichéd (by dint, if nothing else, of being far more recent). So...even if we accept your opinion as fact, that puts them on approximately even footing. And yet, you have stated unequivocally that the Garth Brooks song is "better written." I'm beginning to suspect that you're trolling.
You think Wylie's poem is not Glurge in spades?
BTW, resorting to ad hominem leads me to suspect that you're not arguing in good faith.
- It's far less Glurgey than the Brooks song. The tone is of (as I stated) gentle raillery rather than soppy adoration. And as for ad hominem...I have not attacked you (unless you count my reference to the fact that you don't seem to capitalize or punctuate your edit reasons). I called you on your actions—even going so far as to say that I suspected that you were trolling rather than that you were a troller.
It's all Glurge. Badly written Glurge at that.
And your distinction does not change the fact that you are dragging in extraneous matter to divert from the matter at hand.
- If "Nancy" is badly-written Glurge, "She's Every Woman" definitely is. Yet, you stated unequivocally that the song is "better written"...despite the fact that, even by the standards you're setting, they're about equal. And considering your continued random accusations, you're definitely trolling.
Yes, it's better written. I've already told you. The imagery is not as cliche ridden and sentimental as the Wylie piece. And you are definitely indulging in an ad hominem attack.
- Fine. It's not as cliché-ridden and sentimental as the Wylie piece...because it's considerably more so. And you are playing the "I know you are, but what am I?" game...not to mention the victim card. Thus proving my point.
Fast Eddie: Just move both to the Quotes page: Tsundere.
Ununnilium: Also, sweet Christmas people, sign what you say.
Farseer Lolotea: Sorry about that. It just kind of slipped my mind.
Eddie Van Helsing: Hey, Orihime, shouldn't Uryuu Ishida be the Rival, and not a "platonic Tsundere"?
Orihime: - re-thinks about this- Could he be both? Because that's what it sounds like. Technically, he's the rival, but I recall him also pulling the I Was Just Passing Through excuse at least twice when he goes help Ichigo and the others...
Barano: He does the classic "I'm not doing this for you, I just [insert lame excuse]" at least two times (once with Rukia and once with Orihime), then there's his "I'm only saving you so we can beat each other up later" excuse for saving Ichigo's life, then he insists that he's not fighting to help Rukia and Ichigo but for his own pride as a Quincy (which may not be a complete lie but there's still obviously more to it), insisting that they're enemies which is obviously a lie that nobody takes seriously least of all Ichigo, etc... not to mention his helping people then shooting them down with " it's no big deal" routine that he shows in the first episode he appears in, which, according to Orihime is his normal behavior with his classmates and clubmates. Yet there are moments when he's openly worried, relieved, etcl, basically shows his dere side. (Hell, Orihime and Ichigo even comment on him not being honest about his feelings which is a typical tsundere trait.) Plus he's not really the Rival anymore seeing that Ichigo has far surpassed him by now (damn you, Kubo).
Draqua: Does Rorschach of Watchmen count for a Type A rare male tsundere? I mean, he acts cold, detached and violent 99% of the time... But on certain occasions, like the handshake scene, shows he does have a soft, delicate inner core.
Goldfritha: No, because it's not triggered by a woman he's in love with or even attracted to.
Draqua: Well, Rorschach's attraction to Dan can be debated...
Rogue 7: What is it about this page that attracts song lyrics?
Would the concept of Tsundere be like the relationship problems seen in Borderline Personality Disorder? They tend to either idealize a person (think they're perfect) or devalue them (hate them) and often switch between the two. Of course, most borderlines also have Clingy Jealous Girl traits as well. One book about this condition summed it up well by being titled I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!
Haven Removed this, because, well, the second line summed it up perfectly.
- A rare male example, Roy from Order Of The Stick can be a deredere. I've also noticed traces of this in Redcloak, who tends towards tsuntsun.
- what
Kris Mahai: Removed C.C. from the Code Geass example because she's actually a Kuudere.
- Sackett: Except Kuudere is a subtrope of Tsundere...
Colonial1: Say, why was Lelouch removed?
- Sackett: I checked the page history, it wasn't removed. Someone just moved it to group it with other Code Geass examples.
Thinks Too Much: Corrected whoever called Revy 'both a Tsundere and a Yandere' for several reasons. One: As someone else pointed out, you can't be both. Two: Revy clearly falls into the first category given the description on the page. Three: Revy is clearly not a Yandere seeing as she definitely doesn't appear "cute and harmless on the surface" (direct quote from the Yandere page), is in no way Moe Moe, and when Rock seems interested in Yukio around the end of the second season, her response is not to go psycho but to distance herself from him.
