• 3 May 19th, 2018 at 7:07PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 08:37:23 PM
    While on the Complete Monster thread, the Generic Doomsday Villain trope would often come up, due to the fact that a character needs a personality to count as a Complete Monster. Going over the Generic Doomsday Villain trope page, I think there are many characters who do not count, I think I can make a good argument on why villains like Shinzon from Star Trek Nemesis or the DCAU version of Doomsday do not count and villains who are listed as Complete Monsters like Night Slasher from Cobra should be struck from the page.

    I think sometimes people assume a badly written villain is a Generic Doomsday Villain and list them, which is not the point of this trope. I do not think a long term project is needed to clean up this page, but I do think some short term efforts would be good in making this trope more effective and better defined. So does anyone have some opinions on what should be done with this trope? Reply

      Generic Doomsday Villain can use some cleanup. I often see it misused as "a one dimensional and/or poorly written villain" or "a villain I didn't like" even if said villains have defined motives and personalities, albeit basic ones for the former case.

      ^ What do you think should be done to clean up this trope?

      ^ Just go ahead and remove any non-examples of the trope you come across. Create a cleanup thread if you feel thee misuse is that bad.
  • 9 May 17th, 2018 at 1:01PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 08:29:54 PM
    I need help expanding this page http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TheStray Reply

      Yikes, that's a tiny page. I hope you get help from someone soon, because otherwise it might get deleted.

      You might start with a description.

      is there a Needs More Love type forum thread they can post in for help? I know works can sometimes get help in the Trope Launch Pad, so that's an option too.

      Either way, you really need to do something there, Coolguy. That is essentially a blank page, since the only thing on it as of this post is a Zero-Context Example of Dog Dies at the End, which should be Death by Newbery Medal since you're not supposed to use alternate titles for tropes.

      I've never heard of the film though so I'm not able to be much help on it.

      I don't know if there's a Needs Wiki Magic Love forum thread, per se, but you are allowed to draft work pages in the Trope Launch Pad and get feedback and attention. Could it be posted there?

      Not as-is, but with a little extra detail and a few elaborated on tropes there should be enough to get started with.

      Since Coolguy 31 has been confirmed in another ATT "CHANGE LIVING TOYS TO SENTIENT TOYS" as a ban evader, I'm going to go ahead and just cutlist the page.

      Did the same for Fanfic.Kidnapped, which he alone created and edited. Not sure what to do about edits on legit pages so I'll leave that one to the mods. What about his troper page, though? Should it be cut, too?

      @sgamer82 for the record, linking ATT topics (and topics in other areas on the same style of board) no longer works.

      I know. That's why I also included the title of the ATT. If the link issue is fixed, it's right there. If not, there's an easily searchable title to fall back on.

      You can pseudo-link query topics by searching the title or something in the OP and then using the URL of the results as the link, like this.
  • 3 May 20th, 2018 at 5:05PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 07:01:48 PM
    Long story short, I'm writing an entry about a character who is so ludicrously poor at self preservation (and diplomacy) he makes Leeroy Jenkins himself look downright prudent. So at one point, one of his insanely counterproductive actions has something happen that could have ended in disaster (Well, it did end in disaster, but after that point) but didn't. I want to mention it, but putting it in the as a result section seems cluttered. So what's the extension where their actions results in, among several of the other bad things happening, one thing that could have gone wrong but did not? Reply

      Ask this in Trope Finder.

      It's not a trope, it's just a section: Like the "What you'd expect" or "As a result"

      That just doesn't belong there; if it doesn't go wrong there's no reason to mention it in the example.
  • 4 May 20th, 2018 at 1:01PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 06:19:36 PM
    "* Frozen ends on a supposedly happy note with Anna and Elsa finally reunited after 13 years of separation, Elsa learning to feel again and learn to control her powers, and the citizens completely adoring their new queen of Arendelle. However, even though Anna and Elsa do reconcile with each other, it still doesn't change the fact that they lost all the potential childhood they could have with each other for nothing and due to not knowing the other during that time, they are essentially complete strangers and have to restart their relationship completely from scratch, particularly when things are so much more complicated in their adulthood than they do as children which makes a close bond between them uncertain. There also the fact that even though Elsa managed to control her powers through love, depression and trauma doesn't really go away overnight and due to having spent a really long time in isolation, it would only be time before she reverts to her old habits again, especially since Anna has never been informed the reason why Elsa isolated herself in the first place meaning that even her sister wouldn't be able to help her from depression. Furthermore, a sudden change in weather and an Endless Winter for three days must surely brought some casualties for the citizens either by hypothermia or famine and given the fact that the queen's response to the whole thing is to abandon her kingdom, she certainly doesn't make a good first impression in front of the citizen and would likely have a lot of people out for her blood compared to Hans whose first action as the new king is to them blanket for cover and is supposedly trying to execute the witch for the goodness of the kingdom. It's also been established that Weselton is Arendelle's largest trading partner and by having Elsa cut all ties, it leaves the kingdom hard-pressed to find another close trading partner and given Elsa's actions during the coronation, it is very unlikely that other kingdoms would even trust their new queen to open up a new trading partner, leaving the kingdom in great turmoil. Realistically, it could actually take years, if not decades for them to fix almost all the issues listed above and it is very likely that another trouble could prove even more irrepairable damage on both the kingdom and the sister's relationship. On another issue, Hans being sent back to his family is supposed to be seen as merciful fate where everyone agree that its for his best except that by sending him back home, he is sent back to his abusive family where they would undoubtedly bully him even more, with the implication that he will never be able to escape from his terrible life, unlike Anna."

    Is this an example or people reading way too into things? Reply

      Yeah, that's definitely reading too much into it. This reads more like fanwank than an example.

      Any entry that's that long is immediately suspect to me even before reading it.


      Didn't this already get brought up here before?
  • 3 May 20th, 2018 at 12:12PM
    Live Action TV
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 05:45:12 PM
    Crime show, could either be British or American, I think from the 2000s. One episode was about a mum whose daughter was always unwell in some way and in and out of the hospital and they had a hard time figuring out what was wrong with her. Toward the end of the episode it turned out that the mum was suffering with Munchausen Syndrome and was purposely making her daughter unwell for the attention (daughter may have died due to this). It also turned out that the mum was faking cancer for attention also and would shave her hair and wear head scarves. Reply
  • 6 May 20th, 2018 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 05:07:58 PM
    Today, I made an entry under the film section of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy concerning three films that Molly Ringwald made after Pretty in Pink: The Pick-Up Artist, Fresh Horses, and For Keeps. I wrote that these three films likely failed with critics and audiences due to the high level of angst and the amount of crap that Ringwald's characters seem to go through in them. Does the level of angst and hardship qualify them for the trope? I also think that I could re-word the entry a bit, just to be on the safe side. Reply

      I don't know how much about those movies but Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy applies when all sides involved in those stories' central conflict are all equally unlikeable, so no matter who wins, the universe will sucks. Alternatively, the movies can have heroes but their efforts amount to nothing and the universe still sucks. If those movies have clearly defined heroes and villains and their stories deliver positive outcomes, then the trope is averted, regardless of public opinion.

      Well, last I checked, Rocky V has the trope on its YMMV page.


      "Some other page used it wrong" is not an argument for using it wrong on other pages. It is an argument for removing it from that other page.

      If it's merely too much focus on angst, that should go under Angst Aversion. DIAA could qualify if there was a lot of hardship with no payoff. If the cast suffer but come out as winners, it would not fit, whatever else might drive off audiences. Could you quote what some of the critics said about them?

      I haven't seen The Pick-Up Artist or Betsy's Wedding, but Leonard Maltin's review for the former describes it as "dismal, dour, and deadeningly dull" and filled with "standard James Toback lowlifes". If I remember correctly, Siskel and Ebert panned Betsy's Wedding for its dearth of sympathetic or interesting characters. In constructing the entry, I was mainly going off of my viewings of For Keeps and Fresh Horses. Both films had a ton of misfortune heaped upon Ringwald's characters, especially the former, but instead being meaningfully angsty, they came off as kind of mean-spirited and alienated critics and audiences who were more accustomed to her lighter John Hughes efforts. It didn't help that Ringwald's characters became more and more unappealing; indeed, a good portion of Fresh Horses consists of her violently bickering with Andrew Mccarthy and being a clingy, egotistical lunatic.
  • 2 May 20th, 2018 at 4:04PM
    Western Animation
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 04:28:50 PM
    Characters.Caillou has a normal picture of Caillou and a picture of him playing the piano in a blue tuxedo. I've never seen a character page that had two pictures of the same character, so I want to know if it's okay to have both pictures. Reply

      There are quite a few out there with multiple images, though most of those show them from different works or before/after a major change.

      S Ince the trope list extends well past the 2nd image, I see no harm in it remaining.

      You might want to make an Image Pickin' thread for this.
  • 2 May 20th, 2018 at 2:02AM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 04:27:32 PM
    In Lois and Clark the American guy put the newspaper article on the table and said "Explain this" then the French guy put a French copy of the same article on the table and said "And this" Reply
  • 2 May 19th, 2018 at 11:11AM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 02:52:10 PM
    There's a back-and-forth argument going on in Headscratchers.God Of War PS 4. Massive spoilers below.

    A prophetetic mural at the the end of the game depicts Kratos dead in the arms of his son. Not only that, but the words around the mural literally say "death". Despite this, people are arguing in the Headscratchers page over what the mural means, coming up wuth outlandish excuses to say Kratos might not be dead in that mural. Personally, I don't care about who's right here, but this argument needs to be taken somewhere else so it doesn't clutter the entire page. Reply
  • 1 May 20th, 2018 at 2:02PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 02:46:51 PM
    Almost none of the examples on that page are alive, but all of them are sentient. Reply

      I'd at first say no because you're asking without proof, but then I was checking your IP addresses. Yep, you match a particular ban evader. One that has been posting about Living Toys, in fact.

      So we will assume that you are indeed him. In that case, sayonara.
  • 1 May 20th, 2018 at 1:01PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 02:07:18 PM
    I want to say the episode is of Killer Kids, but I can't find it. In the episode, a woman falls in love with this guy that isn't any good for her and her mother doesn't approve of their relationship. Somehow the guy convinces the girl that killing her mother is the only way they can stay together, so she leads her mother into this trap for him to kill her. The show ends with the woman going to prison and her father frequently visits her in prison. She might go on to tell the camera guys that she still loves her boyfriend, I'm not sure. Is there anyone that can point me in the right direction? I can't find the episode anywhere, and I'm trying to use it for research on a piece that I'm writing. Thanks in advance, Roses Reply
  • 2 May 20th, 2018 at 12:12AM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 01:39:11 PM
    I'm not complaining, but I want to know why all MCU pages (or at least the Film namespace) are Spoilers Off.

    If I have to guess, it is "one spoiler-related tropers complications too many"? Reply

      Probably because of Infinity War.

      To expand, TV shows are commonly spoilers-off for all but the latest season, and as the MCU is officially a serial, the "latest season" is in effect the latest film. Not to mention how uncontrollable spoilers would be, anyway.
  • 5 May 20th, 2018 at 2:02AM
    Western Animation
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 09:48:53 AM
    I'm starting to edit Ben 10: Omniverse but don't want to get into an Edit War.

    How can I remove wordiness, but keep the basic context within tropes listed on the page, other than:

    • Text
      • Sub-text
      • Sub-text
        • Sub-text

    I'm trying to make sure I've got things right. Reply

      Your generic example doesn't help a whole lot, but based on the fact that it is a work page means it should be.

      • Trope
        • Example 1
        • Example 2
          • <— This is almost certainly bad. The third bullet point is almost always a justifying edit or conversation in the main page. If it has anything useful to add it should be merged into the bullet above it, otherwise it should be nuked as natter.


      I didn't know what example to give, as that page has a lot of long paragraphs, but equally, I didn't want to get into a pointless Edit War over a paragraph.

      Let's start with the Broken Aesop entries. The third bullet points start with "Granted" and "To be fair". Those are both justifying edits and don't appear to add anything. They just amount to "that is correct but I feel it was justified and your example makes it sound negative". That is completely nukable

      In Cerebus Rollercoaster the extra bulletpoint adds extra information that should have been incorporated into the primary example and violates Repair, Don't Respond.

      The extra bullet point under Clark Kenting is conversation in the main page and adds a rhetorical question.

      Cool Car should be not

      Note for Cool Car also apples to Dark Is Not Evil

      Deader Than Dead is all white and violates spoiler policy.


      Sheesh, I'm too tired to dissect this anymore. Someone with a lot of time who knows the show needs to clean it up. It is a mess.

      Given the amount of work that needs to be done it might be best to sandbox it.

      Gosh, you're telling me. Before I saw this posted, I've also known that the Omniverse pages needed cleaning for a while, but wasn't sure where to begin without accidentally setting off an edit war. So I just started by fixing all the misspellings of "Incursean." Formerly, it was spelled "Inkursean" a lot, which is incorrect. Now I'm noticing that I'm going to have to fix a lot of misspellings of Ester's name. There shouldn't be an H in it.

      I'm willing to help out if need be. I definitely know the show enough to help.

      Don't use extra bullet points to split paragraphs. The proper way to separate paragraphs is by adding two backslashes to the end of a paragraph, or three backslashes if you want a line break between the paragraphs.

      Edit: See what previous posters have said about what not to put in an added paragraph. Natter and justifying edits don't belong anywhere.
  • 2 May 19th, 2018 at 9:09PM
    Print Comic
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 09:26:10 AM
    ComicStrip.Baby Blues had several examples that don't make sense, like 'this is clearly based on Animaniacs' despite the latter coming first. I deleted them, but can soemone watch to see if they return?

    "*** The fact that the series is similar to Animaniacs, but with more adult jokes. Even the characters are parodies of the characters in the series. For example, Zoe is a parody of Yakko Warner, Hammie is a parody of Wakko Warner, Wren is a parody of Dot Warner but starting in 2016, Zoe is nowhere to be seen, Hammie is a parody of Yakko Warner now that he's taking care of his sister and Wren is still a parody of Dot Warner, except she's also a parody of Mindy in select comics. "*** The illustrations make a strikingly resemblance to Peanuts (especially when the kids yell or cry), Harold and the Purple Crayon and the animated television series Rocko's Modern Life. " Reply

      At first glance, I thought maybe the Animaniacs thing could be in relation to the short-lived TV series. But since they mention Hammie and Wren, who are comic only, yeah. The Peanuts one could be legit, but Peanuts is one of those series that's so old and iconic it's probably hard not to borrow from them.

      God this is stupid. Good call lalalei!
  • 1 May 20th, 2018 at 8:08AM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 08:49:03 AM
    Can a Catch-Phrase also be considered as a Verbal Tic, and vice-versa? How can I differentiate the two? Reply

      Verbal Tic is a subtrope of Catch-Phrase, going by VT's description of "An exceptionally odd Catch-Phrase used to the point it seems more like a bodily emission than speaking." and is listed as such in Catch-Phrase.

      The difference seems to be that the character doesn't actually control the Verbal Tic, while a Catch-Phrase is something they deliberately say.
  • 1 May 20th, 2018 at 4:04AM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 04:13:43 AM
    My sister keeps going on about some cartoon that we use to watch that i dont seem to remember anyways she told me it was about a guy who wore a green diamond circle shaped necklace which was on black string and im not sure whether it was before or after he travelled to another dimension and foun ld the necklace ir something, anyways he then found a few people who (with him) turned into animals. My sister said she only remembers that one guy turns into a turtle to quote: “an extreme turtle” yeah so hoping someone can help me?...coz i just dont remember thanks x Reply
  • 1 May 20th, 2018 at 12:12AM
    Lastest Reply: 20th May, 2018 02:08:40 AM
    Thin-Line Animation seems to have a quote issue. On the main page the quote doesn't relate to the topic well and is overly positive, while on its quotes page the one quite there does relate to the topic but is overly-negative. What kind of a quote should it have, if at all? (I tried searching for a Quotes topic in the forums but couldn't find it.) Reply

      There's a forum thread dedicated to page quotes here
  • 5 May 18th, 2018 at 3:03AM
    Western Animation
    Lastest Reply: 19th May, 2018 09:32:40 PM
    Kelothan added this example to Critical Dissonance:
    * Sonic Boom critical opinion ranges from good to mixed. Sonic Boom general opinion ranges from mixed to garbage.

    Before changing it to the following:
    * Sonic Boom is a hugely popular show amongst children, criticsnote , and post-2014 Sonic fans. The consensus among most Sonic fans is that it's mediocre at best, insultingly dumb at worst.

    I deleted the example as it basically says that both critics like it and children (e.g. the target audicence like it) meaning that there is no dissonance, which is what I explained in my edit reason.

    I also have to call bullshit on the whole "The consensus among most Sonic fans is that it's mediocre at best, insultingly dumb at worst" thing, because speaking as someone who's in the Sonic fandom, whilst there have been some who don't like the show, the majority of the fandom that I've seen has been outright positive towards the show.

    Kelothan has since then re-added it to the page, but with different wording:
    * Sonic Boom is an incredibly divisive show, with many calling it the worst animated adaptation of Sonic the Hedgehog. Despite this, it received generally positive reviews, and managed to find its own fanbase.

      I think this count as a edit war.

      I don't think this is the first time Kelothan has edit-warred or something.


      Permission to zap the example?

  • 4 May 19th, 2018 at 11:11AM
    Lastest Reply: 19th May, 2018 09:10:20 PM
    Broken Base was added to the MLP episode that just aired today. Does the six-month rule for Broken Base apply here? Or is there anything different here?

    And since this was one of the leaked episodes, with the others set to air, can we add stuff from the leaks once the leaked content in questions officially airs? Reply

      I would say that the six-month rule still applies. Also, if the entry is based on a leaked episode that hasn't had an official release yet, it's probably for the best to remove it.

      The Broken Base thing is a separate question. It's not based on what leaked.

      My question is can we add stuff from the leaks after the episode officially airs?

      Short answer: Yes

      "something something policy is leaks aren't troped until what they leaked is officially aired or something, last I checked" - me

      "Correct. Our general policy is that content may only be troped upon its official release." - Fighteer

      While that seems obvious in hindsight. Anyway, thanks, question answered.
  • 1 May 19th, 2018 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 19th May, 2018 08:08:10 PM
    Broken Base now requires six months pass since the work releases to see if it remains divisive enough to count? Does the same apply to Base-Breaking Character?

    I recall it did for The Last Jedi, or was that a special case given its especially contentious nature. Reply

      I believe the six months requirement applies to Base-Breaking Character as well, so we can see if the fandom's disagreement over a character is sustained.
  • 0 May 19th, 2018 at 2:02PM
    Woolseyism.Yu Gi Oh needs some clean up, as it seems that many examples are just "I like what the dub did here regardless of whether it was necessary" rather than actual examples of changing something to work in a new language. Reply
  • 1 May 19th, 2018 at 7:07AM
    Lastest Reply: 19th May, 2018 12:27:32 PM
    Just asking, is there a policy for the moments subpages to be listed/organized based on its order of sequence? Reply

      I'm not aware of any official policy for how to arrange Moments, but most pages tend to list them in chronological order.

      I don't think anyone would object to you re-ordering them chronologically as long as you keep the original text of the entries.
  • 2 May 17th, 2018 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 19th May, 2018 10:01:02 AM
    Does RealityEnsues.Power Rangers 2017 have enough genuine examples to have its own page? I had to cut RealityEnsues.Hulk earlier for having poorly-formatted non-examples. Reply


      There are definitely enough examples, but it's still kind of a crap page. Maybe someone who actually liked the movie should take a look at it.
  • 9 May 18th, 2018 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 19th May, 2018 09:52:52 AM
    Hi folks, we've had some issues with bad examples being removed from YMMV pages and then having people readd them. One issue I noticed is the misinterpretation of the part in the description that states an MB may "be on either side of the conflict". While this is true, Bastard is part of the trope name so a qualifier must also either be evil or take some pretty seedy measures in the name of the greater good. To prevent an edit war, I'm asking for mod assistance to revert edits misinterpreting the qualifying measures, please and thank you. Reply

      I assume MB is Magnificent Bastard?

      If so, is there a specific instance you're running across that can be used as an example?

      Name aside, are the examples in violation of the trope's existing definition? Because that's what will matter here.

      One example is on the Marvel Cinematic Universe YMMV page. Regarding the definition, there is currently a clean up thread.


      There is more to a trope than the title, and the trope definition for Magnificent Bastard explicitly says "it's common for them to be a Villain, Villain Protagonist, or at least an Anti-Hero, but purely heroic examples exist"

      Your interpretation appears to be at odds with the current definition, and changing that definition calls for a Trope Repair Shop thread, not a mere clean-up. You should not be deleting examples unless they violate the actual, current definition, not what you want the definition to be.

      That bit about heroic examples existing is a crock and has always been a serious problem with the trope page. Not least because most heroic examples belong on Guile Hero, not MB. It's a sign of trope decay and needs to get removed from the page, stat.

      The trope may require redefinition, but removing that part of the definition would be redefinition, not a superficial change, and needs to go through appropriate channels. Anyone who feels that change is needed is free to start that process by trying to open a TRS thread

      Someone did create a thread, but it hasn't been unlocked by the mods yet.

      For the record, I checked the "clean-up" thread yesterday and saw that 43110 was planning to take this properly through TRS, and pointed out in the thread that deletions on the basis of being heroic characters should cease until the definition is changed (if it is changed). In response, Ambar Sonof Deshar clearly stated that they "will not" stop deleting these examples, based on their opinion that heroic characters do not qualify (post #800 in that thread).

      Then they'll have no one to blame but themselves if they hold to that and a suspension happens as a result.
  • 0 May 19th, 2018 at 8:08AM
    Can anyone help me with my TLP? I've tried asking on the YKTTW workstation thread but no one has answered. Reply