During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
HT, you can't wait two days for this? It changes nothing yet. Obito's obsessed with a fantays Rin and even said she's not 'real' if she dies and doesn't love him. And please can you wait until Obito's a corpse or the arc is over?
He's shown full willingness to slaughter everything in his way so he can have his happy dreamland. Thus far, it's not love, it's purely selfish obsession.
I'll also acknowledge the Three Watch Dogs as well.
edited 1st Jul '13 7:13:46 PM by Lightysnake
Alright, I want to nip this in the bud right now. From YMMV.Avengers Arena
- Complete Monster: Arcade, of course. Also, Apex, since she is the only one on the island who is all too willing to play Arcade's "game".
Arcade is the same X-men villain from here, but now he is forcing teens to kill each other in a Battle Royale rip-off on and island isolated from any other superhero aid. He is doing this specifically to increase his villain cred.
Apex is one of the participants and is the only one actively trying to kill the others to survive the game.
Do either of them count?
The series is ongoing, so let's wait and see
There are also quite a few examples from the Anime and Manga that need edits. Here is a merge between the two Highschool Of The Dead examples
- Sadist Teacher Sidou of Highschool Of The Dead first shows he's a man to fear when, during a zombie attack, when a student he's guiding twists his ankle and begs Sidou for help. Sidou's response was to kick him in the face, and gloating over the poor kid's impending death and his own survival by telling that the new world had no place for people that weak. Then he uses his position as a teacher to get himself elected leader of the surviving group. Sidou sets out to make himself a cult leader, promoting sexual activity amongst the kids to make them loyal to Sidou. When a student doesn't like the action going on in the "orgybus" and asks if he can just be dropped off at his house to see if his family is OK. Sidou and his group, who are at this point a cult, decide that the best way to grant his wish is to throw him out of the bus and let him get eaten. In a Zombie Apocalypse, Shidou stands out as more evil and vile than any walking corpse.
- Medusa from Soul Eater. Complete Monster is really the only fitting description of her. Her list of evil-doings is long and continues to grow. She's a witch who has used her own child, Crona, as a horrible science experiment, driving them to complete madness and not showing an ounce of love, much less regret. When Crona is finally shown, for the first time in their life, true kindness from Maka, they do a Heel–Face Turn. At this time, Medusa is also trying to revive the Kishin using two witches, Eruka and Mizune, that she blackmailed into helping her—she can off them with a snap of her fingers. When she's defeated by Stein, she escapes in the form of a snake and takes over the body of a little girl. She uses this form to her advantage, knowing damn well the protagonists won't kill her if it means killing the child. She gets Crona in Shibusen to act as The Mole and drive Stein to (greater) madness. When her sister Arachne is revived, Medusa goes to Shibusen to ask for their aid in defeating her—she's given Shibusen's best students to help with the job. At this point, Crona's been captured and Medusa tells Maka it was Arachne who took her. When Maka defeats Arachne, Medusa takes over her sister's body and tells Maka she lied: she was the one who captured Crona. As of recent chapters, we see Medusa has driven Crona to insanity and broken him/her again to use against Shibusen and anyone else who stands in her way, all just as an experiment. She then gives Crona the first hug she/he ever got from her, driving her completely mad and killing her, all part of her sick plan.
- To put it in further perspective: before Medusa appeared, Soul Eater was a funny, off-kilter shonen series whose main draw was watching the antics of its amusingly dysfunctional and mismatched protagonists. Afterwards, it started morphing into an almost-Cosmic Horror Story where people die or go insane by the truckload, and said protagonists aren't safe from being Driven to Madness. It still very much retains its weird sense of humour.
- Vicious of Cowboy Bebop. The reasonable response to your best friend seeing your girlfriend is not to sadistically force her to decide between her own death and having to kill her lover herself. Vicious has loyalty to nobody and thinks nothing of betraying former comrades to death or prison...he doesn't even register when men loyal to him give their lives as they're expendable to him. He also has no qualms about betraying anyone, whether he's usurping power from his leaders or cutting the throat of the foster father who saved his life.
- What, the list this long and still no reference to villains from Violinist Of Hameln manga? Well, with Violinist Of Hameln being a dramedy, most of the mazoku land in the Faux Affably Evil territory, as, even though they are mass-murdering literal monsters, devoid of any real redeeming qualities, their quirks and antics are regularly played for laughs. There are two exceptions, though:
- With Violinist Of Hameln being a dramedy, most of the mazoku are regularly played for laughs. There are two exceptions, though:
- In Sukeban Deka, the Mizuchi Family, including Sleazy Politician Gozo, his daughters Emi (Small Name, Big Ego), Ayumi (The Aggressive Drug Dealer), and Reimi (Bitch in Sheep's Clothing Sociopath) all qualified for this status by the first ten minutes of the OVA. They orchestrate the deaths of over sixty of the sisters' classmates to make room for the kids of possible financial benefactors for Gozo's political career. The sisters themselves have committed these individual acts:
- Emi has stolen and copied numerous paintings and passed them off as her own while espousing what a great talent she is. She then plots to steal a painting created by Saki Asamiya's friend Junko. And for good measure, has her kidnapped, drugged, tortured, and raped over the course of a week until she's finally killed. Although it's possible Reimi was responsible for the latter.
- Ayumi is, oddly enough, the least evil of the three sisters, as her antics besides the bus crash mainly including drug dealing and racketeering throughout the high school.
- Reimi is by far the worst of the entire family. The bus crash was her idea, and she herself is quite good at putting on the facade of being the White Sheep. Adored by the student body as a Madonna-type figure, Reimi uses this to her advantage when she decides to brainwash her students for her personal army. She then gives Ayumi a rigged shotgun, steals all her money, has one of her brainwashed lackeys kill Emi and Gozo (and the herself), and then laughs about "her poor sisters. During her rooftop battle with Saki, Reimi drops the princess facade and reveals her true Ax-Crazy tendencies as she savages Saki with a whip while screaming at her about her supposedly insane mother.
- In Sukeban Deka Reimi qualifies for this status when she and her family orchestrate the deaths of over sixty of the sisters' classmates to make room for the kids of possible financial benefactors for the father, Gozo's, political career. Reimi is quite good at putting on the façade of being the White Sheep, which she uses this to her advantage when she decides to brainwash her students for her personal army. She then gives Ayumi a rigged shotgun, steals all her money, has one of her brainwashed lackeys kill Emi and Gozo (and the herself), and then laughs about "her poor sisters. During her rooftop battle with Saki, Reimi drops the princess facade and reveals her true Ax-Crazy tendencies as she savages Saki with a whip while screaming at her about her supposedly insane mother.
- Yonemi Kamon from Battle Royale is the administrator of the Battle Royale Program, where high school students are forced to kill one another. His hobbies are watching students kill each other, killing students and joking about said students' deaths. After taking a schoolbus full of students including Shuuya and Yoshio to be transported into the Program, he later tells he also went and raped an orphanage director Shuuya and Yoshio had grown close to (just in case you didn't already get he's evil). What makes Yonemi so noteworthy (and awesome) as a villain is that unlike the movie portrayal of the Director, he doesn't even pretend to buy into the crap about maintaining order or protecting the honor of the Empire. He enjoys raping and killing, and he's a huge fan of the Program because he gets to see teenagers deal with gut-wrenching emotions before dying horribly. Even soldiers are visibly nervous around him. Considerable is also how he goes out. When the teacher is killed in the movie, it's because the main character shoots him. In the novel, Shogo Kawada shoves a sharpened pencil against his throat, killing the teacher. In the manga, they shove sharpened pencils into his nostrils and slam his head against a desk, which many readers think of as highly earned a demise for the character considered one of the most evil men ever depicted in manga.
edited 2nd Jul '13 6:01:33 AM by randomtroper89
@Hambuger Time: By what you said, Naraku from Inuyasha would have to go as well, since he loved Kikyo. If love is an obsession, it's not a redeeming trait. Naraku loved Kikyo but it didn't stop him from constantly trying to kill her. I believe Obito to be the same. I'm well aware of the author's tendency to give each villain no matter how heinous they were a sympathetic backstory and ultimately a touching send off, but I doubt Obito's going to get any of that.
Love can be a redeeming trait but I don't think it's always one. If it was, we'd have to remove Naraku for loving Kikyo. Unless I'm mistaken and that's a genuine redeeming trait in which case Naraku's write up that I wrote would have to be cut.
edited 1st Jul '13 9:08:11 PM by Klavice
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Sorry for my absence. It's been a bad few days at work. I've got three days off now, so I should be getting back into the swing of things shortly.
Okay. We've been through Naraku. He views his love as a weakness and tries to remove it.
Obito, by contrast, states he doesn't care about the 'reality' any more. His 'love' is basically a selfish "I want a happy fantasy".
If this changes in the next few weeks. We'll bring him back. Until then, please stop bringing this stuff up every week.
Foreign Troper
Alright, as much as I hate it, but I think we're gonna have to cut Ultimate Reed Richards. Since the new Ultimates-Arc started, he has founded the *Dark Ultimates* and is now more of a Well-Intentioned Extremist. He has cured diseases, ended hunger and took the Mutants (who are treated even worse in Ultimate Marvel) under his protection.
edited 2nd Jul '13 6:16:53 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Waitand see how the arc goes first. Right now, Ultimate Reed seems more motivated by ego than anything.
@Saiya Man
That may violate the no groups rule.
It doesn't. It's three beings who share a hive mind
And they become one being again too. They were originally one person.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Any comments on the King remainders (link in my sig)?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Found this on the Agent Pendergast page:
- Complete Monster: Job, in Still Life with Crows, who thinks he's really playing with toys instead of horrifically murdering people. The resolution involves his mother wondering where it all went wrong, and Pendergast points out that he didn't know because he never experienced morality for himself.
- Job's fundamentalist grandfather is this for being the reason he turned out like that. He forced Job's mother to keep him underground and out of sight to hide the shame of her Teenage pregnancy.
The entry clearly states that Job thinks he's playing with toys. There's also this bit from the Still Life with Crows page:
- I Just Want to Have Friends: Job attacks and kills people because he's trying to play with them and doesn't know his own strength or the consequences of death. In the end, Corrie manages to talk him down from killing her by offering to be his friend.
edited 2nd Jul '13 1:32:37 PM by TVRulezAgain
Cut Job. He has no genuine moral agency due to never having been raised to see people as people.
I have finally put in the requests to have Mister Mind and the Mongul II rewrite added to the DC subpage. Looking it over though, I was struck by a glaring problem: what is Wonder Woman villain Genocide doing on the list?
I'm pretty sure that Genocide was discussed at some point and cut. If she wasn't, she needs to be now. For those who don't know, Genocide is the corpse of a future Diana, infused with the souls of those slaughtered in ethnic cleansing, and brought to horrible screaming life by Dr. TO Morrow, Felix Faust, The Cheetah, and Ares as part of a revenge plot. She's got no moral agency, having been created to be exactly what she is, and recieves almost no characterisation to boot. Worse still, she's nowhere near as bad as some of those involved with her creation. Felix Faust and Ares' rapsheets alone more than drown out anything that Genocide does in the single arc she was a part of.
Genocide needs to go. Listing her would be like listing Doomsday.
If people agree with what I wrote about Atropos here, I'll try to do a write-up.
I don't think George Stark is Made of Evil. It's not really clear what he is, but it's heavily implied he's the spirit of Thad's vanishing twin. He used to be Thad's Split Personality, when he influenced Thad to write ultra-violent novels under the pen name George Stark. Eventually, Stark decide to go public on it and stop writing this kind of stories, even holding a mock funeral for George Stark.
Then Stark somehow gains a real body, which he use to get revenge on everyone who made Thad stop writing (the guy who discovered the pen name, Thad's agent...) and force Thad to start writing again. In total, he kills fourteen people, some of which he tortures and dismembers which a straight razor. But it's been a while since I read the book, so I don't remember much beyond that.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hadn't it been established that Genocide DOES have some agency? Though actually, you bring up Ares, and it seems like he might count too. Alkyone, while bad, FWIW doesn't seem as bad as Dr. Psycho.
Alkyone doesn't need to be, they're two different characters in MO.
Ares has some redeeming features
Genocide has no agency. She was built to be what she is. She's a zombie/cyborg/god thing designed to feel nothing but hate and the desire to kill. Any ability to make moral choices is never demonstrated, and she spends all of her screentime trying to kill or injure anything that steps into reach.
As Lightysnake already noted, Ares has a few redeeming traits, however minor. That said, he does successfully set the heinous bar for the setting, so whenever a Wonder Woman villain is suggested, keeping Ares rapsheet in mind is a very good thing.
With Alkyone...I've never been entirely sold on her qualifying. I'm not against it per se, but I'm not quite sure what it is she does that people find so heinous, particularly since her acts in her second appearance are done after being corrupted by Genocide's soul.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Though we DO all agree that Psycho counts, right? Yikes.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
No one is arguing that Psycho doesn't count. Of all Wonder Woman's villains he's the easiest qualifier, and has been for the longest amount of time.
I should note here that Cheetah doesn't count, either. She tends to leapfrog between having redeeming qualities or not, has some measure of inconsistently applied standards and does have people she cares about.
Inconsistent standards being she is disgusted at having to work with Doctor Light as she despises rapists, but has zero issue working with Dr. Psycho elsewhere
That's actually a pretty consistent issue in Wonder Woman in general, is it not? The series is constantly being retooled, and the villains along with it, so for our purposes here, I would imagine that we should only include those individuals who are consistently monstrous.
I'd like to add the Eastern Watchdogs from Garo to the Live Action Monsters list.
Who is she?
The Eastern Watchdogs are a trio of Creepy Children with a Hive Mind due to being the same being in the past. They are tasked in purifying-then returning the purified Horror matter to the spirit world. While presented as enigmatic at the beginning of the series, their darker nature starts to be revealed more and more after episode 10.
What has she done?
The Eastern Watchdogs are essentially behind everything in the series. Every murder that a horror does literally can be traced back to them due to their plans of reviving the 'Messiah', the god of the Horrors in the physical world. The Watchdogs had sent Barago, a fellow Complete Monster Blood Knight to kill dozens of innocent people, including Koga's father the last Garo Golden Knight, as well as Rei's fiancee Shizuka and his father as well. Not to mention they chose Kaoru to be Messiah's vessel, essentially ruining her life while having Barago 'protect' her until the time is right.
Not only that, they purposely set Rei and Koga against each other, neither explaining why Rei doesn't trust the Gold Knight, or telling Rei Koga isn't responsible. Instead, they let the hatred between them start to fester and purposely pair them up and send them on missions where they're likely to snap and kill each other.
Finally, when its time for Messiah to be revived, they possess an innocent girl for no other reason than to become 'one person' again. They do this knowingly-if the Watchdogs get killed the girl gets killed as well, and the girl is put in constant pain and agony since they've become closer to Horrors than anything else.
Do they have Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities?
No, the Watchdogs don't. The closest thing that could mitigate the Watchdogs actions is Kodama, they're / her Battle Butler / Son was killed by Koga who had been pushed past the limit, which was a reaction of shock. However...she goes after Rei to let Koga try to fight either Barago or Messiah, purposely torturing him in a drawn out fight and attempting to Mind Rape him with an illusion of his deceased fiancee Shizuka.
Conclusion
The Eastern Watchdogs qualify down the board from horrific murders, her actions treated as monstrous in series, and the sheer threat and hatred she gets from the characters after her true colors are revealed.
Note: the Eastern Watchdogs are again, one person split into three with just a Hive Mind, hence why they are referred to as they or she at different points.
edited 1st Jul '13 7:13:28 PM by SuperSaiyaMan