Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@11067

If we're talking full on rewrites, with massive changes to wording, etc, you'd post it here. If on the other hand you're just talking about going in and removing unnecessary links, or fixing bad grammer, nobody is likely to care if you do that unilaterally.

Personally, I like most of the examples the way they are (Berg still needs some stylistic changes). One of the issues with the franchise as a whole is that, given the startling lack of originality displayed by many of the writers, after a while all the monsters start to sound the same (crazy man with Wave-Motion Gun tries to blow up earth, or Sociopathic Soldier gets off on killing). The way they're written right now, I don't think anybody is in danger of mixing up Azrael and Djibril, or confusing Gihren Zabi and Seidel Rasso, or Yazan Gable and Ali Al-Saachez. Of course since I wrote, or rewrote a bunch of them, I might be a little biased.

One reason, by the way, that a couple of entries are as long as they are is because of the new rule against putting a single indent under an entry. Originally Gihren's crimes from materials other than MSG were in a bullet point under him. Same with Azrael's crimes from Stargazer. Once that rule came in I had to fuse them, or have separate entries for the same character (which would just be silly).

I am removing Farkill. I'll do some touch up for Berg while I'm at it (I may not know the book, but I can fix spelling, grammer, and stylistic choices).

EDIT: This is Berg's current entry:

• The Spin-Off novel Gundam Wing G Unit brings us Dr. Berg, a Mad Scientist suffering from a terminal case of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder who is willing to betray and murder in order to complete his research and create the most powerful Gundams ever, as he takes pride and joy in inventing newer and newer ways for humans to kill each other. He has no regard at all for human lives and only considers people as guinea pigs for him to toy with. It is also revealed later on that he arranged for the death of Dr. Burnett and his wife, the parents of series protagonists Odin and Odel, in order to divert fundings from their research to his own weapon manufacturing...and the reveal sends Odel, who is normally quite The Stoic, into an Unstoppable Rage and drives him to kill Berg. Unfortunately, the mad doc initiates a Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum and activates his Grand Shirio's doomsday program to destroy the colonies and drop itself on Earth to pollute it with its nuclear engines.

This is what I want to change it to:

• The Spin-Off novel Gundam Wing G Unit brings us Dr. Berg, a Mad Scientist suffering from a terminal case of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder. Taking pride in inventing new ways for people to kill each other, Berg has Odin and Odel Burnett's parents killed so that he can divert money from their projects and into his own. He sees other people as test subjects, rather than equals, or even human beings, and willingly works for the likes of Valdor Farkill if it means the chance to design the most powerful Gundams yet built. When karma finally catches up to him, Berg uses his last moments to activate Grand Shirio's Doomsday Program, sending the ship careening towards the Earth, firing its lasers at the colonies as it passes; when it strikes the planet, Berg intends for it to pollute the Earth with its nuclear engines, ruining the biosphere.

The things you can do with the original entry and some help from the wiki. That better?

edited 5th Apr '13 10:57:29 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

For Bossk...all onscreen. He did all of this across multiple stories. As for his dad, the scene ends with him grabbing his father by the throat, clearly declaring intent, and then another bounty hunter whose perspective the scene is from quickly exits the room while hearing Bossk snacking on his father.

If so, I can work with that.

YMMV.Black Butler has a protagonist example, plus there's This Troper and and inaccuracy. I know for a fact that Ciel cares for Lizzie, and as for Sebastian.... I think he actually lacks enough personality to be a Monster. He's just a dog on a leash, as much as he'd like to deny it.

Burn that.

@Dragonheart, I agree, cut everyone but Eion.

from YMMV.Gossip Girl

• Complete Monster: The first villain on the show to enter this trope may be Russell Thorpe. A ruthless blackmailer and corporate shark, he at first appears to be more of a Knight Templar trying to avenge his dead wife, accidentally killed by Chuck's father. Then it turns out that he was the one who caused her death, not Bart Bass. And then he kidnaps Blair.
  • Bart Bass finally crossed the line in "The Revengers" when he tried to have Chuck killed and when that didn't work, tried to kill him himself.
  • It's hard to argue, if you believe the canon that Dan is Gossip Girl, that Dan isn't a psychopathic stalker with at the very least, a major split personality disorder.
  • Agnes Andrews, full stop. If burning Jenny's dresses out of pure spite wasn't bad enough, then she drugs Jenny and leaves her in a club, hoping that Jenny will be raped .

Russell Thorpe and Bart Bass have murder and attempted murder respectively as their crimes so they can stay. Agnes Andrews is misogyny and Dan Humphrey is Wild Mass Guessing plus they fail the heinous standard.

@11039: I think your writeup for the Djinn was much better then mine, looks good to me.

By the way everyone, Buddy Love is listed on the Nutty Professor page. Yeah, never seen it, but from what I can tell from the nostalgia critic review, it is a family friendly comedy, it does say "at least in the sequel" though. Anyone got any opinons?

edited 4th Apr '13 8:38:51 PM by bobg

Cut it with prejudice.

re: Black Butler: Blargh. Those entries are a mess. Cut everyone except maybe Ash/Angela. Explanations given below, but note uncovered spoilers (in case anyone cares).

• Baron Kelvin: I think cut, as he seems to have a teeny, tiny spark of good. It's established that he's obsessed with Ciel, in a partly lustful, partly sadistic manner—this manifests as wanting to recreate (and successfully go through with) the ceremony Ciel was nearly murdered as part of. He's also shown to brainwash children and make them perform circus acts which lead to their deaths, and he's established as supporting research that makes prostheses from fresh child human bones. But despite that, he takes in orphaned, abandoned, and disabled children and seems to genuinely care for them.
• The Doctor: The guy carrying out the research into using human bones in prostheses. He's shown killing a girl, but that's the extent of his on-screen heinous actions. He fails to be the most heinous in the universe, given his low (shown) body count. It's also unclear whether he truly wants to help those with disabilities, which makes his "no redeeming qualities" suspect.
• Angela/Ash: These are together because although they're technically two characters, they're two parts of the same entity. They're also anime-only. They're angel Knight Templars who want to "purify" the world—by burning it to ash. So far, they're the only world-ending threat that's been faced in either the manga or the anime. While they see themselves as pure and good, the story clearly shows that they're manipulative (manipulating Queen Victoria into supporting them by restoring part of Albert to her—yes, it's as creepy as it sounds—and creating a cult which draws from those who are at their most vulnerable purely to eventually kill them all to beef up their powers), hypocritical (they can't stand "impurity", but their definition of impurity seems to be "anything that's not us", and they use many of the same tactics they decry in their enemies), and utterly uncaring about human life. They have no sympathetic qualities. The one thing that could possibly disqualify them is that they're the only angels we see, so it's not really clear whether they have moral choice. However, the narrative in general has a focus on choices and free will, so them not having free will seems unlikely, and unlike the demons who have to eat human souls to survive, the angel's actions are not necessary for their survival and does not benefit them (aside from making them feel "pure").
• Ciel, as noted, genuinely cares for Lizzie, which is an auto-disqualification, not to mention that he has a huge Freudian excuse (parents killed, kidnapped, tortured, raped or nearly raped (it's not clear which), and nearly murdered, all in a row when he was 10 or 11—he's 12 when the manga and anime start, 13 currently), plus much of what he does is part of his job as "the Queen's watchdog" (meaning he, as head of the house of Phantomhive, is responsible for taking on all the violent, nasty, morally ambiguous jobs that none of the other nobles are willing to dirty their hands with and are too sensitive to hand to the Yard).
• Sebastian: First, he is currently under Ciel's command, which means that almost everything he does is on Ciel's order, so ultimate responsibility devolves to Ciel, not Sebastian. Second, even if the previous point wasn't there, he's not the most heinous by the standards of the story in either the manga or the anime (although he's closer in the manga). In the anime, he is far eclipsed by Angela/Ash (world-destroyers) in the first season and by the sadistic manipulations of Alois in the second season. In the manga, he is no worse than, say, the guy who created a zombie army which would have killed everyone on the Titanic-equivalent ship. Addressing what the current examples mentions—the fact that he is implied to be deliberately encouraging Ciel's slow slide towards the Moral Event Horizon—one thing to keep in mind which wasn't mentioned is that, as a demon, souls are his only food. It's rather difficult, in my mind, to declare someone a complete monster just because they're preparing a meal—even when their methods and goals are strongly morally objectionable—and there's no indication (and, in the anime, some contra-indication) that Sebastian is in any way unusually sadistic about this. Besides, it's only implied, not stated or shown, which makes it insufficient grounds to base Complete Monster-dom on.

edited 4th Apr '13 9:14:14 PM by Nocturna

doctor, Sebastian, and Ciel look like cuts. Baron Kelvin: Does the research using the fresh child bones relate to him taking in the orphans?

Gonna Cut Anti-Monitor from the YMMV of Green Lantern: The Animated Series if there are no objections in 24 hours.

As for Van Kleiss: Letting the creature go is notable because he needs the stuff he injected into it (the nanites) to continue to live, as he mentions several times that he continues to run low and must use them sparingly, and he lost a lot to egypt. Draining the creature would make more sense, and would let him live longer.

Found this added to Adventure Time

• Ricardio also spends pretty much every moment of his screentime crossing a new Moral Event Horizon. His first episode involves him trying to cut out Princess Bubblegum's heart with broken glass, so that he can make out with it. In his second (and final) appearance, he nearly kills Finn, Jake, and Ice King; beats up the pregnant Lady Rainicorn; and tries to force himself on PB. Needless to say, a lot of fans were happy when PB beats him to death with his own limbs.]]

can you elaborate?

edited 4th Apr '13 9:11:17 PM by DrPsyche

He still had ways past that, though.

re: Baron Kelvin: They're sort of related. The prosthetics research is primarily for himself (and related to his obsession with Ciel), but he also provides the children he takes in with the prostheses and there's no indication that he's ever considered using those children as part of the research, aside from their being unwitting testers of the quality of the the prostheses.

edited 4th Apr '13 9:13:05 PM by Nocturna

Baron Kelvin? Just named after him, or epic Historical Villain Upgrade?

@11082 Re: YMMV.Gossip Girl.

The last two (Dan and Agnes Andrews) are easy riddance. But to count those other two (Russell Thorpe and Bart Bass ) as keepers will need more arguments. Do they fit all rules? No altruism? No genuine love for anyone? Murders on screen?

@11085 Re: Black Butler:

Baron Kelvin: That write-up actually gave me chills. As Dr Psyche asked... I have a similar question. What if he helps the children so that he could use their fresh bones? However, it could be just Fridge Logic on my part, and Implied Trope doesn't count. But it seriously freaked me out.

Otherwise I agree with your reasoning. I vote for Ash/Angela.

edit: I overlooked your answer. If their is no indication that he uses the children whom he helped, then I'll support the cut.

edited 4th Apr '13 10:05:41 PM by XFllo

Just to add a dessenting vote onto Bossek from Star Wars; what he did is not henious by his species' standard. Yes, he ate his father, who proudly kept the bones of the brothers and sisters he killed and ate just after they were all born and who killed his own father. That is literally how his species operates. They are also all slavers, have a long-standing hatred of wookies, so he's no unique in that regard.

He's also treated as a joke, having lost his ship several times, to Boba Fett (who is a massive badass so it's forgiveable) and to a pair of con-artists and their robot companion (who are less badass). He's constantly made a fool of (such as Boba getting him to flee his own ship in terror or being hoodwinked by the two con-artists) and is never really treated like a CM. His last appearance has Han Solo knocking him out and getting him thrown into a prison cell, and the bulk of all his appearances illustrate that no matter how deadly he can be, he's still outmatched in one way or another.

Also, for DLC Starkiller BURN WITH A THOUSAND SONS. He's a PC, thus can't even be considered for CM status.

Also, adding to that, DLC Starkiller seemed to be listed just for (non-canonically at that) killing the heroes. How is that in any way something other than everyday villainy?

I'll switch vote to Bossk to cut. I'd forgotten how the Trandoshans can be

I added the Gorgon now under Wolverine and the main page, as there were no objections.

Of most of the earlier Star Wars examples...Nil Spaar almost counts, but I'd say he's disqualified for a few reasons...he seems genuinely devoted to his species, even if they're all total psychos, and he seems to care about his first mate

Okay, wow, I missed the LIVING statues part. Gorgon DEFINITELY counts.

@Hamburger Time: Probably just named after him, as the only real resemblance seems to be the name. And possibly the house. Black Butler tends to play fast and loose with any sort of historical accuracy.

@XFllo: Baron Kelvin: Yeah, he's an awful guy, but there's no indication that he doesn't genuinely care for the kids he takes in. He just has absolutely no regard for any other kids. He seems to be of the opinion that the mistreatment of the underprivileged means that anyone who hasn't suffered as much doesn't deserve life. :/

edited 5th Apr '13 6:57:45 AM by Nocturna

Any other word on Chuck De Nomolos from Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey, mentioned in @11051? Yeah, it's unanimous so far... but I really would like more votes than me and Lightysnake.

edited 5th Apr '13 7:19:50 AM by 32_Footsteps

I think there are three possibilities: cut it, cut it, or cut it.

edited 5th Apr '13 7:36:32 AM by TVRulezAgain

I have a question. I've only watched a couple of episodes of the Black Butler anime series, but my sense was that Sebastian had some affection for Ciel as well as some general Noble Demon tendencies.

Maybe it is different in the manga/later on in the anime, but I would consider Sebastian quite far from being a Complete Monster (tl; dr, he seems to be about as nice as could be expected from a demon who likes souls the way one would like a good piece of meat).

Another example I'm questioning, from Prison Break:

• Complete Monster:
  • Christina Scofield and Wyatt are definite cases.
  • Don Self is also a bloodthirsty bastard with very few redeeming qualities.
  • Theodore "T-Bag" Bagwell: Disgusting child rapist, utterly sociopathic murderer, and he's also kind of a racist douche, too.

Note- I haven't watched this show, but have started watching its "spin-off" (in the same universe), Breakout Kings, in which T-Bag appears in one episode.

Can't speak to the first example.

I'm guessing Don Self is a cut since the example itself indicates he has some redeeming qualities.

As for T-Bag, all of that listed in the entry is true- he's definitely one of those 99% monster examples; however, the guy does really love his mother and is also shown as displaying affection toward some others and capable of the occasional dog petting.

In Breakout Kings, one of the protagonists is basically a criminal profiler, and while he ultimately concludes that T-Bag was simply born bad (irrespective of the fact that he's a Child by Rape of Brother–Sister Incest and his father sexually and physically abused him), there's a big part of his character that part of him really wants to be a good, well-respected person (but there's also a part of him that is just a sociopathic monster)