Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Amen.

The question now is, do we scrap the current examples such that only ones added through mod request would be there, or do we go through the ones we already have one-by-one to determine if they fit? The latter would be a lot more effort, but if that's the approach we're going to take, we may as well start now.

Perhaps starting with the anime section and going over each character one at a time? As I pointed out in another thread, progress in the Disney CM thread was going slowly but steadily when we went through them one at a time; it's when we tried to discuss several examples at a time that it all got disorganized.

edited 21st Dec '11 6:21:27 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

Don't know the guy that much, but I'd just like to point a reminder that being a living weapon doesn't automatically mean you lack free will - for example, Stormbringer from The Elric Saga : "Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!" (though I doubt it qualifies as a CM, it's most definitely fully sapient and free-willed, unfortunately for Elric)

That said, other input from people who played the game would be appreciated.

EDIT: This is about Ghirahim from the last page; several other post were made while I wrote.

edited 21st Dec '11 6:29:21 PM by Paireon

The second one appeals more to me, because frankly I don't think it would be much longer or more difficult, as there's still going to be drama anyways, and probably magnified in this case by the removal of the examples on the pages -plus, readding all those that count is going to be a bigger hassle than cutting the bad ones in my humble opinion.

It's unfortunate that we have to resort to such drastic measures, but if it's what it takes to save the trope I'm all for it.

I also think that most pages should be less problematic than Disney, at least when "kids' stuff" isn't the subject. Vile Villain, Saccharine Show can warp perceptions even if such a setting sets the bar lower for Complete Monsterdom by their very nature.

edited 21st Dec '11 6:45:46 PM by Paireon

Sigh... as much as I loathe locked pages in general, I agree with Fighteer. The problems that have arisen due to this trope are so numerous that it's one of the main proofs that locks are necessary due to how badly some things are misunderstood.

This is Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things.

You must have been away for awhile, we've already started. Tabletop Games I think is done. The natter has been cut, the examples pruned and weeded out, all we need now is for one or two more people to look over it and see if it's done. The same should be done with Proffessional Wrestling which I've personally cleaned up.

Besides that, Mass Effect is looking good, although there is one example we agreed on in that page's discussion but nobody actually listed, but if someone could give us a lookover for it that would be swell. Besides that, Fallout, Fable and Metal Gear all look good and if the rest of you agree we can safely lock those and move onto new examples.

Tabletop Games still has a couple of nattery bits, as I mentioned earlier.

Do you want to point them out so we can work on de-nattering them?

EDIT: Oh wow, I fucked up in my cleanup. Can a Mod remove "Dark Voice" from the Starcraft examples? It counts as negative continutiy since it hasn't happened yet.

EDIT 2: Also, could you cut Kramer and his son from the Heavy Rain example? Gordi has a body count of one and apparantly was quite hysterical afterwards (he didn't mean to kill him), and his father, while he does try to kill two people, does it to protect his son from being jailed as the Oragami Killer (he isn't btw).

edited 22nd Dec '11 5:42:36 PM by Shaoken

The Exalted entry on Desus still seems like it's nattery, and while it looks to have been slightly trimmed, so is Cyric of Forgotten Realms. Again, I don't know enough about either character to know how to condense those (although the accusation of Bad Writing on the latter, true or not, should probably get the chop).

I realise that this comes a few pages late. On the subject of entire factions falling into Complete Monster territory, the one thing from WW that I think does deserve a mention are Slashers. They're basically an antagonist splat for making complete monster type characters. Just a thought.

That's not a faction though, that's more of a state of being or a very specific kind of quasi-supernatural being. Still, I'll add it in.

Wouldn't that make them fit better?

I was agreeing, that's why I've added Slashers.

Just reminded of this by a recent post, so bumping.

Bumping. I would also like to recommend that Halo be locked, once a few tropers have looked over the remaining examples. If we can start locking pages we can make some headway.

EDIT: Also, Grand Theft Auto . I've gone and deleted three examples; the first two because at the end they were only listed because they stabbed the player in the back, and just killed people they didn't like, meaning they didn't compare to the other C Ms in those games. And the last example was the player character if they went on killing rampages, which falls under negative continuity.

And I'm still waiting for verdicts on the following pages; Mass Effect , Fallout , Fable and Metal Gear

edited 31st Dec '11 5:20:28 PM by Shaoken

For GTA, I definately think Dimitri Rascalov counts. Betraying Nico wouldn't have been so bad on its own, but it comes directly on the heels of Rascalov ordering Nico to kill Rascalov's boss and best friend, Faustin. When Dimitri makes the request it's portrayed as dark but also tragic and understandable given that Faustin is becoming increasingly psychotic. However, once Rascalov betrays Nico, Rascalov's entire characterization does a complete 180. He goes from Nice Guy to power hungry Smug Snake instantly, and never again does the Nice Guy part resurface, which implies that whole persona was an act. The two moments that really sell his CM status, to me at least, are when 1) he has Roman kidnapped and tortured and sends a mocking pic and text of it to Nico, and 2) the Deal ending. After Nico survives yet another of his betrayals, instead of letting Nico go on with his life, Rascalov sends an assassin after Nico at Roman's wedding. During the fight, Roman is killed by the assassin. It wasn't Rascalov's goal, but he's clearly happy with the results: "I laughed when your cousin died!"

edited 1st Jan '12 2:41:32 PM by OccasionalExister

Alright, I'll bring forth the three criteria;

• The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way.

That depends on wether or not we're comparing CM's. I removed him because his actions basically boiled down to killing and kidnapping (or ordering someone else to do it). For killing, it's a GTA game. Pretty much every other character whose involved in crime has an equal or greater body count. As for kidnapping, the player kidnaps Gracie for ransom, whereas Dimitri actually has a more legitimate reason; he's friends with Ray Bulgarian and Bulgarian is under the impression that Nico screwed him over. We all know it's bullshit, but Dimitri has no reason to not believe Ray.

Comparatively, we have a pedophilic serial killer, Ray who does much worse to people for lesser reasons, and just about every other crime-lord or officer we run into the game. Hell we don't even see Roman get tortured; in the Lost and hte Damned we witness one of the members getting tortured yet the guy responsible isn't on this list. If we take the revenge ending your former boss kills Kate, yet he's not on the CM list.

Basically, I'm saying that Dimitri fails to meet he truly henious criteria because his actions are the norm for the setting, and the only thing that stands him apart from the others is that he's particularly mean about it. Objectively, Grand Theft Auto is a series that doesn't have too many Complete Monsters, it's a very Black-and-Black Morality series. If we included Dimitri I could bring up and name a few dozen other named characters from across the series who have preformed the same deeds on the same scale.

"Objectively, Grand Theft Auto is a series that doesn't have too many Complete Monsters, it's a very Black And Black Morality series. If we included Dimitri I could bring up and name a few dozen other named characters from across the series who have preformed the same deeds on the same scale."

I only started playing around GTA 3 and that's the only game that really seemed to adhere to Blackand Black Morality. Otherwise, I think all games subscribe to Grayand Black Morality since the good guys are sympathetic despite being criminals. Also, the past games are a bit more... cartoony. GTA 4 was when the series tone got grittier and more realistic, so killing and violence felt worse when compared to installments like San Andreas. The atmosphere of the past games are so different from GTA 4, it feels weird to judge them on the same basis.

“I removed him because his actions basically boiled down to killing and kidnapping (or ordering someone else to do it). For killing, it's a GTA game.”

It’s the quality of the kills that matter. Ordering your best friend killed is horrible no matter what way you look at it. It seemed reasonable at the time but if you take into account Dimitri’s betrayal of Nico, Rascalov's radical change in personality, and the absence of guilt over having Faustin killed, everything known about Dimitri becomes Harsherin Hindsight. His order to kill Faustin no longer comes across as about survival. It becomes about survival and a grab for power.

Also, we both know there’s something far worse about killing a main character than there is killing nameless, background characters. Because it strikes the player on a personal level. Roman is Nico’s best friend, and the one character other than Nico who the player has gotten to know the most. Roman is constantly involved in the main story missions, so even if you don’t take the time to hang out with him you still get to witness his Character Development and become attached to him.

You mentioned Pegorino’s killing of Kate, and that he isn’t a CM because of it. That’s true, and here’s why I think so. Both deaths at the end were accidental with Nico being the intended target, but the difference is that Pegorino’s was a crime of passion (Nico betrayed him and ruined his business), while Dimitri tries to kill him Forthe Evulz. Pegorino is portrayed as a joke throughout the story, while Dimitri is portrayed as a consistent, hated threat. Also, no matter how many dates you went on with Kate, she was still a minor character and in the end you don’t know her anywhere near as well as you know Roman. Which is why when Roman dies it’s more of a Player Punch and when Kate dies it’s more of a “meh” (though YMMV). You could even say that Kate’s death is the “happier" ending because Nico is going into a greater depression in the Deal ending, while in the Revenge ending he's in mourning but at least he still has his family.

“Basically, I'm saying that Dimitri fails to meet he truly henious criteria because his actions are the norm for the setting, and the only thing that stands him apart from the others is that he's particularly mean about it.”

But with that arguement I don't understand why you left Bulgarin on the list. He doesn't do that much onscreen. At least Dimitri was hated by almost everyone Nico encountered and seen as a dark presence. Sure Bulgarin seemed scary in the main game, but in the Ballad of Gay Tony... he owns arcade games. He collects rock memorablia and plays the guitar with his Dragon in a band. His evil plan is to own a hockey team! He’s nothing but a petty, murderous jerk. He gets one legitimately scary moment but other than that he’s Faux Affably Evil at worst. So I just don't get why you say Dimitri doesn't count but Bulgarin does.

edited 2nd Jan '12 12:47:47 PM by OccasionalExister

"It’s the quality of the kills that matter. Ordering your best friend killed is horrible no matter what way you look at it. It seemed reasonable at the time but if you take into account Dimitri’s betrayal of Nico, Rascalov's radical change in personality, and the absence of guilt over having Faustin killed, everything known about Dimitri becomes Harsherin Hindsight. His order to kill Faustin no longer comes across as about survival. It becomes about survival and a grab for power."

I disagree. Dimitri has been with Faustin for years, long enough to see his slide into paranoia and insanity. He had to have had dozens of opportunities to screw him over, but only did it when Faustin killed the wrong person. He had some loyalty there, since otherwise it makes no sense for him to have stuck around with such a loose cannon for years. As for the absence of guilt, he betrays you to Ray immediately afterwards.

"Also, we both know there’s something far worse about killing a main character than there is killing nameless, background characters. Because it strikes the player on a personal level. Roman is Nico’s best friend, and the one character other than Nico who the player has gotten to know the most. Roman is constantly involved in the main story missions, so even if you don’t take the time to hang out with him you still get to witness his Character Development and become attached to him."

Funny, I'm interpreting that as Rockstar creating an intentional double standards; everything Dimitri does, you yourself have done at some point for even worse reasons; He kidnapped Roman to get to you for Ray who believes you've screwed him, you kidnapped Gracie to get ransom money from her father. He betrays Faustin to save his own life, throughout the game you've betrayed several of your employers for varying reasons. hell Dimitri's final betrayal in the deal ending can be attributed to him being Genre Savvy enough to know that if Nico is willing to put aside a grudge for money, he'd be willing to kill him if someone offered enough money.

"But with that arguement I don't understand why you left Bulgarin on the list. He doesn't do that much onscreen. At least Dimitri was hated by almost everyone Nico encountered and seen as a dark presence. Sure Bulgarin seemed scary in the main game, but in the Ballad of Gay Tony... he owns arcade games. He collects rock memorablia and plays the guitar with his Dragon in a band. His evil plan is to own a hockey team! He’s nothing but a petty, murderous jerk. He gets one legitimately scary moment but other than that he’s Faux Affably Evil at worst. So I just don't get why you say Dimitri doesn't count but Bulgarin does. "

I included him because he had pety reasons for everything. He shot at his own sister for yelling him. He tries to kill Luis for not giving him the diamonds, even though Luis had no way of knowing they belonged to him originally. In spite of being Affiably Evil, he's still a complete monster because while everything Dimitri does is calculated to ensuring his own survival, Bulgarin just likes hurting people. But if you disagree, I can removing him as well.

Let me just say, I really like your counter argument. I had never thought of the Notso Different dynamic before between Nico and Dimitri and it makes their relationship more interesting for me… But… I still think Rascalov counts as a CM. Largely because, no matter what dickish things Nico does during the course of the story, he still has the audience’s sympathy because he’s the protagonist. I’m not saying protagonists can’t be C Ms, but it’s harder for them to achieve this status, and Nico is consistently portrayed as a decent man and sympathetic person, who has been trapped by circumstances into his current life of crime. Nico may kill and kidnap, but because of his Sympathetic P.O.V. we know he’s a “good guy” even if he is a criminal. Is it a Double Standard? Yes, but that’s just the way protagonists and antagonists work. Protagonists automatically get our sympathy, while antagonists have to earn it. If no attempts are made to garner our sympathies, antagonists get our enmity instead. It’s why the players let Nico get away with being a human trafficker at one point, and not Bulgarin. Dimitri never does anything that proves himself unworthy of the hatred he earns with his first betrayal of Nico. If there were ever a Sympathetic P.O.V. for Dimitri then I’d understand not including him… but there isn’t. So Dimitri has to be judged exclusively on the actions we see in game, and what we see him doing is being a dog-kicking Jerkass with multiple potential points for having crossed the Moral Event Horizon. As for Bulgarin's inclusion, I don't particularly care one way or the other. I just thought he wasn't as bad as Rascalov so his inclusion seemed odd to me.

edited 2nd Jan '12 10:04:40 PM by OccasionalExister

The existence of a double standard for this trope goes utterly against any pretense of objectivity we're trying to make. Support pulling him.

Okay. Not to change topics too abruptly but how about Pieter Burke, the Big Bad of the Deus Ex Human Revolution DLC: The Missing Link, would he qualify? He’s a high-ranking Belltower Operative who’s first act is to have Adam tortured to find out why Adam snuck on his ship. Dickish, but understandable… at least until it’s revealed what Burke is involved with.

Burke is in charge of an operation that involves abducting hundreds of innocent people on false charges of terrorism, in order to conduct illegal medical experiments on them with an incredibly high mortality rate. As Adam goes through the detention camp he encounters these detainees, who are hysterical and begging to be let out. Sometimes talking to them can lead into Tearjerker territory, such as the case with a college student named Nina Sullivan, who was literally grabbed off the streets. When you find her, she is horrified because she thinks she'll be taken away like the others who were never seen again. No matter how much she begs, Adam can’t take her with him. Her survival is dependent on the player’s later actions.

Most prisoners who undergo the medical procedure die during it, in fact there’s a recording Adam can listen to, in which Burke impassively watches a subject die during the surgery, before nonchalantly ordering another brought it. Later on, when one of the scientists objects to what they’re doing and claims they need to start using volunteers instead of kidnapping people, Burke threatens to make her a volunteer instead.

Throughout most of the DLC the exact nature of the procedure is kept a mystery but when The Reveal comes it’s High Octane Nightmare Fuel. The project is used to make Hyron Drones, people turned into living-computers. Drones have their spines ripped out and replaced with augmented ones. They exist in a constant state of And I Must Scream, rambling about the pain they’re in and pleading for help. In one case, a girl encountered near the end of the DLC has gone through the surgery successfully. She begs for death, and Adam can grant her, her wish. On the bright side those subjects who come out of the experiment successfully, don’t survive longer than a year.

In the DLC’s finale, after Burke has discovered Adam’s efforts to expose him, he initiates a scorched earth policy to dispose of all witnesses. The first thing he does is have his goons murder Lt. Kietner, Adam’s ally throughout the DLC. Next, Burke floods the prisoners’ cells and researchers’ labs with poisonous gas. This action forces Adam into a Sadistic Choice, either he saves hundreds of innocent lives by diverting the gas flooding their cells into the researchers’ labs, or does the inverse and saves the life of the one scientist Adam has convinced to turn whistleblower. While killing the prisoners, this latter option gives Adam the evidence to stop Belltower from abducting and experimenting on countless more people in the future. There is a third option that lets you save the prisoners and the whistleblower, but you aren’t told the option exists, and finding the secret room to shut off the gas, and having the right augments to reach it is a real Guide Dang It!.

Finally, in a game full of Grayand Gray Morality, Burke is the only main antagonist in the game (except for Zhao) not acting for the world’s greater good, but as someone working for his own benefit.

edited 6th Jan '12 1:13:35 AM by OccasionalExister

Interesting, but I classify him as believing in Utopia Justifies the Means and a Punch Clock Villian. He does horrible things, but he's A) getting paid for them and B) the organsation he works for the Illuminati believe they're doing good for the world. Simply put, we're never told anything about his history or motivations beyond the fact that he had been dishonourably discharged from the US Marines for an unspecified reason.

It also bears repeating that every he does on the base is dictated by his employers, Belltower Associates and by extension, the Illumanti. He's not doing any of the acts for kicks, he's doing them because that is what he's being paid to do. Therefore, he's disqualified as he's just following orders. Even the other thing he does like killing Kieter and flooding the labs and the cells with posion are pre-existing policies to prevent exposure.

So yeah, I'm throwing in my two cents and say keep him off the list; he falls under Punch Clock Villian.

If they do horrible enough things just to get paid, I think it's actually conceivable that a Punch-Clock Villain can be a Complete Monster. I don't know enough to weigh in on this one side or another, but the fact that he's doing it for money alone wouldn't disqualify him.

I think we need more detail as to Burke's reasons for his actions and other "mental state" questions. I could think of several tropes that could theoretically apply in this instance. But based on what has been mentioned so far, I feel like I don't have enough info to make a call. He could be a Punch-Clock Villain, or maybe he's just really cruel and sadistic. Maybe he has no other choice, or maybe he's just kidnapping and torturing folks for more profits. Those and a couple other questions are left to me based on that description. Is that all there is, or does the game give more info on motivations, thought processes, Burke's opinions, and the like?

If that description is all the game gives, I'd lean towards no (given that the game in question is, at best, a Grey-and-Grey Morality setting). But it wouldn't take all that much for me to lean towards yes.