Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Yes

First off... Krystoff, it defeats the purpose of "He Who Must Not Be Named" if you ask publicly what name belongs. PM someone if you want confirmation on that.

Anyhow, going to go over a few examples as well as try bringing up new ones...

@3536 Ugh... I'm inclined to cut those to get the writers in here to discuss them (including, among other things, to establish what work they're from - that smacks of Fan Myopia at its worst). Kjartan is the closest to looking like he belongs, but even that entry needs much clarification.

@3537 Sarda wouldn't count, regardless of how serious things are played. Honestly, given all that happened, I think of him as a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, except his actual potential world-destroying is more an accident than anything else. Even if the entire thing wasn't Played for Laughs, I'd vote against him. To be perfectly frank, I have a hard time disagreeing - the Light Warriors in Eight Bit Theater did mostly deserve to die (except poor Fighter, stuck as collateral damage).

@3540 Oh, it's so tempting to vote to keep Chris McLean. But this isn't a vote for The Scrappy (and even then, he probably shouldn't be there, since he's pretty much meant to be unlikeable). He's played as much more of a Jerkass, and they never make it explicit that he's trying to just kill off all of these Canadian kids. Also, the Pet the Dog moments. So cut him.

@3544 Well, I would give more detail, but Shaoken says everything I would have said. Cut.

Okay, going through the subpage for Artix Entertainment...

Ledgermayne sounds like a Generic Doomsday Villain to me. Blah blah, destroy the world. There's more to it than just being a cardboard cutout of a threat, right? I vote cut.

Vath sounds like he pales compared to Ledgermayne, so I would vote cut. Not only do I think the same of Stalkwalker, I'm also not so sure he qualifies simply due to needing to feed on people.

Tibicenas just sounds like he was trying to kill the hero and acting under orders. Easy cut.

Vordred should be cut, not only for not being as heinous as Ledgermayne, but also for explicitly being described as less than Sally. Sally really doesn't have much against her other than creating Vordred (bearing responsibility for what he's done), and that's about it.

Krellenos, I'd want details over whether this "chaorrupting" is as bad as what Ledgermayne tried to do. He might be the only keep in this mess.

Exos... really, you need more than one murder, especially given the above, to qualify.

Desoloth, really, think he should be on there for killing a lemur? No. Just no.

The Dragon Fables section should be cut entirely - it's the prequel to the above, so same standards applies, and I don't think any of the examples reaches the level of the above would-be qualifiers. Also, the last one is called a subversion, so it should be cut.

So in all, I'm leaning towards moving Krellenos to the main page and cutting the rest.

For Monster.Breath Of Fire:

Yuna of Breath Of Fire IV looks good to me.

Rasso, I want to cut, because, as the entry says, he's not even the worst character in the fourth game. Rasso might commit genocide, but Yuna basically figures out a way to weaponize genocide. Just no comparison there.

Haburaku basically does what Yuna does, except in a more religious, instead of scientific, manner. I would keep him, but clean up the entry to be just one bullet point.

Vexacion of Breath Of Fire Dragon Quarter may be a highborn prejudiced jerkass, but the only thing they describe is putting his son through Training from Hell. I don't approve, but that's not enough to qualify. Cut.

So, my vote is to move Yuna and Haburaku (after cleanup) to the Video Game page and cut Monster.Breath Of Fire.

I'll do a proposed rewrite for Monster.Disgaea in its own post.

I've cut the line about the Faceless Ones from Serpine's entry, as it is irrelevant. I'll wait until the end of the day, and if there are no further comments either way, cut those characters that there seems to be a consensus on.

I saw on Literature page, those examples. I haven't read any of them but I will say what I think, and I want to get opinions;

• Virgil Byrnes, the father of the title character in Chris Crutcher's Staying Fat For Sarah Byrnes. He holds the three-year old Sarah Byrnes' face against a burning wood stove and forces her to tell people she was burned by pulling a pot of boiling spaghetti on herself. According to Sarah Byrnes, he would tie her up and refuse to let her eat. What could arguably be called his most defining moment as a character beyond sympathy is him stabbing and nearly killing Moby out of pure spite. There is no explanation or even attempt at rationalization for anything he does; he's just batshit crazy, which even his own kid says to be the case. Karma gets Virgil in the end. That last act brings to light all of his crimes and he ends up a fugitive. Then Moby's mother's boyfriend, Carver Middleton, a Vietnam War veteran who served in Special Forces, tracks him down and beats the shit out of him. Then the psycho gets a 20 year prison sentence.
  • Crutcher definitely has a thing for Complete Monster characters, especially in positions of authority, below are some of the most chilling.:
    • T.B. from Chinese Handcuffs (serial child rapist).
    • Rich Marshall from Whale Talk (a racist, who psychologically tortured his biracial stepdaughter).
    • Hudgie Walters' dad from Ironman (shoots his kid's puppy because he forgot to feed it one time and tortures Hudgie to the point he can't function socially, along with Angry Management revealing Hudgie to have killed himself shortly after the end of Ironman)

The first and second seem like clear examples. The third, I am not sure but I lean towards keep. The last one on the other hand, shooting a puppy is not heinous at all, at least compared to the other examples. I am inclined to delete it.

After rereading through the Bateman stuff, I'm kind of confused as to what write-up we settled on? I can have it switched in once I know what alterations need to be made. Also, I'm really unsure about the "fucks her in the mouth" having italics, because "fucks her in the mouth" is pretty much the focal point of the whole paragraph, and doesn't need more attention drawn to it anyways. (I love CM writing. Really livens up the morning.)

Also, Vigil Burns needs a serious rewrite to get rid of the AND THEEEEEEEN issue.

edited 1st Oct '12 10:04:30 AM by LargoQuagmire

The italics should go. That's a part that (in the rewrite I did) got copied from the earlier, weaker example, and wasn't altered. I don't think we honestly need any italics.

Anyway, I cut a few more groups from the literature page, as well as one example that freely admitted to being an aversion. I also found some more one-liners.

• Wendy from Blubber will bully anyone who dares opposing her and make their lives a living hell with no remorse. No one will believe you if you complain because she's eleven and Children Are Innocent.

What if anything does she do?

• In Robert E. Howard's Conan The Barbarian story "A Witch Shall Be Born", Salome chose Constantius specifically "because of his utter lack of all characteristics men call good."

On that note, what does he do?

Does someone want to rewrite this one?

• There are hardly 'good' people there in The Witcher saga. Various characters do have some understandable and relatable motivation. Dijkstra genuinely cares for his country and so does Emhyr. Filippa works towards a better future for sorceresses and magic in general. The Rats were all broken mentally in the past. Elves have reasons to hate humans. Humans have reasons to hate elves. There has even been a benevolent vampire. Vilgefortz and Leo Bonhart are exceptions. Vilgefortz commits immoral actions for a sense of power or scientific curiosity. He hurts the hero Geralt in order to get Ciri. Despiser of women, Vilgefortz only cares about Ciri's placenta and also wants to use her for his wicked plans. Leo Bonhart wants his victims to express emotions beforehand. He is hired to brutalize Ciri and kill all her friends. Leo does all he does not because of money, but for fun.

Oh, and just in case anyone wants to know, the Wicked Witch of the West, and the White Witch from Narnia are on the lit page. Hadn't we agreed to cut them quite some time back?

• Cathy from East Of Eden. "I've done things that would turn your blood to spit." These include murdering her parents and abandoning her children.

Then tell us about it honey.

• Peter Kirk from Anne of Ingleside. At his funeral, his former sister-in-law denounces his cruelty to her late sister, including saying that she should have died too, when her baby was stillborn. His widow publicly thanks her.

What?

Rich I can see qualifying. Here's what happens—Rich's girlfriend Alicia leaves him for a black football player named Willis. Willis is later crippled, and leaves, leaving Alicia with a biracial daughter. Rich persuades his ex that no one else will ever want her now that she's been contaminated by a black man, and convinces her to move back in with him. At home he tortures the biracial girl, Heidi, by not letting her touch her brothers' toys, allowing them to push her around, and telling her at one point that she should use a hard sponge to clean off the black taint, causes her to scrape her skin raw. He also beats his wife on a regular basis. As an advisor to the school football team he regularly hassles the main character, TJ Jones (who is part white, part black, and part Japanese), calling him racial slurs, and at one point, shooting a deer out from under him while hunting. He also encourages the football team to pick on TJ, and Chris Coughlin, a handicapped boy. When Alicia leaves him and seeks shelter at TJ's house, Rich starts stalking her, making threats against TJ and his family, and causing Heidi to have a mental breakdown. Finally, at the end of the book, after losing a basketball match against TJ and his dad, he pulls a gun and tries to shoot Heidi, killing TJ's dad instead.

Anyway, Rich is a vile human being, and I have no issues with him being on the page.

edited 1st Oct '12 1:48:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Jadis from Narnia; I've read The Magicians Nephew but I can't tell the difference between Offstage Villainy (for the record, Offscreen Villainy is a redirect to Offstage Villainy) and a flashback in a book. That is as expressed in [1] the only way she could qualify.

Geez, I wish it had been longer than half a lifetime ago since I read East Of Eden (I did really like it, back when I was 16). I want to actually say that Cathy doesn't belong. She did walk out on her children, but she did leave them in the care of the father, so it's not quite as bad as it sounds (that entry makes it sound like she left them on a mountaintop or something). As for the murdering her parents part, I don't remember if that was on-screen or not (given how monstrously thorough that book is in its thousand-page length, I think it was) or whether there was some sort of justification for it (I think there was for that, too). I still own the book; give me a day or two to refresh myself on the example.

Regarding Jadis: I have to agree that Offstage Villainy makes her ineligible. What she's seen to do on-screen is pretty tame even for kids' fare. She's scary, but scary alone does not make a Complete Monster.

My vague recollections of East Of Eden match 32 Footsteps', and I'd say cut, but I don't still own it, so I'll defer to someone who can double-check.

I was not saying that it's Offstage Villainy, I was asking which of the two (flashback or Offstage Villainy) it is.

edited 1st Oct '12 1:52:48 PM by SeptimusHeap

Well, Jadis herself admits to doing it, so it's not an Informed Ability, but it is still not anything that we see her do; we just get the aftereffects. Similarly, we have no doubts that she's the one who turned all the animals in her castle to stone, even if they happen in the backstory.

But at no point does the story expect the reader to become attached to the people of Charn, and all of the people she turns to stone come back to life. In fact, the Queen fails to kill anybody that we know of, except of course Aslan, who gets better.

Erm... you asked the question. I'm not sure if it counts as Offstage Villainy given that we explicitly know she did it.

edited 1st Oct '12 2:09:50 PM by Fighteer

I think it does still count as Offscreen Villainy, because Jadis isn't shown doing it; she just talks about it. They don't have a legit flashback; we only hear about it through Jadis' words. That results in a cut in every other character.

Also, I find it funny that not only is there a habit to spoiler text Jesus dies when discussing The Bible, but to similarly spoiler text Aslan dies in The Chronicles Of Narnia, considering the latter is explicitly the Narnian version of the former.

In The Bible, "Jesus dies" is classical It Was His Sled.

On Jadis, I say Digory's and [what was the girl called?]'s lack of reaction to Jadis's statement makes the Charn episode more disqualifying than the Offstage Villainy argument (which holds more water in movies than in books, since dialogue and even description are the same in the latter)

Well, the reason I discount Jadis' recounting as Offscreen Villainy is because we only have her word for what specifically happened. She certainly thinks it's all her fault. But we really only have her word on it (although Aslan admittedly hints at it being at least partly true), and even if she does completely believe it to be true, it's not necessarily a given that she's correct.

@3556: I think there was a consensus to cut the Wicked Witch of the West. I support cutting Wendy, Constantius, and Peter Kirk unless someone can offer powerful rewrites. I’ll wait for 32 to decide on Cathy, though I’m leaning towards cut.

@3552 & 3528: I agree with pretty much all the decisions with regards to Artix Entertainment and Breath Of Fire. Also agree with cutting League Of Legends page right out. Also with cutting the Shroobs and Dark Star while keeping Dimentio and the Shadow Queen.

@3529: From what I’ve been able to find out, Saint-Just is said to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist. He’s using tyranny to stop Haven from collapsing under the strain of losing a war. While Pavel Young’s personality sounds like one of the most selfish, cowardly and evil in the series, he hasn’t done as many heinous actions on the scale of the other two. From what I can find out, he raped a woman when he was sixteen, attempted to rape Honor, and sent assassins after Honor and her lover, succeeding in killing the latter. Based on this, I’d cut them both, but I’d keep Andre Warnecke.

@3526: From what Ambar said in 3541, I’d say Sir Martin counts. Just switch out his entry with what Ambar wrote in 3541 and the entry would look solid. According to the Sharpe works page, Obadiah actually does perform rapes along with his “brigands.” Honestly, all three examples seem like they count at a glance, but I’d prefer if someone familiar with the work could bulk the entries up. All mention of each individual’s Karmic Death should be cut.

@3554: That entire last spoilered segment should be cut from Virgil Byrnes, other than that I think the example looks ok. T.B. definitely sounds like he counts, but he needs a larger entry. Hudgie Walter’s dad may count, but the nature of the torture should be elaborated on, since it was apparently effective enough to drive his son to suicide. Ambar’s description of Richie in 3556 was enough to change my vote from cut to keep, but it needs a serious rewrite.

So, with The Elder Scrolls, if there aren’t any objections I’d like to swap out my rewrites for Mankar and Mannimarco, and pretty much cut all the entries other than Queen Akorithi, Mannimarco and Mankar. My arguments were here. If there aren’t any objections by tomorrow at midnight I’ll make the changes and ask for a page lock.

edited 1st Oct '12 3:43:25 PM by OccasionalExister

Alright, another vote to cut Saint-Just and Pavel. That brings us up to four for them. It should be noted that according to the Honorverse Wiki, Saint-Just considered Rob S. Pierre (subtle Weber) to be a personal friend as well, which pretty much seals his chances of qualifying. As for Pavel, looking over his entry on the Wiki, he hasn't done anything. There's an attempted rape, a failed murder plot, and cheating in a duel. That might qualify him in some books, I suppose, but not in a space opera where Saint-Just and Warnecke are around.

Speaking of Warnecke, I looked over his page on the Wiki, and he would indeed seem to qualify. Here's an attempt at a rewrite (keep in mind that I haven't read the book).

• Most of Honor Harrington's enemies have been fairly complex adversaries with understandable, or even altruistic goals. Not so in the case of Andre Warnecke, former dictator of the Chalice Cluster. Taking control of the Cluster during a revolution, Warnecke promised reform, but delivered oppression so severe that three million people died. After being run out of the system, he turned to piracy, robbing and stealing from merchant ships in order to finance a return to Chalice. Coming upon the pacifistic world of Sidemore, Warnecke took power, executed all senior officials, and placed nuclear warheads in all major cities in order to ensure the population's loyalty. When Honor and the HMAMC Wayfarer arrived on Sidemore to bring him to justice, Warnecke detonated one of his nukes to show that he wasn't bluffing, then offered to exchange the lives of Sidemore's urban population for his own personal safety.

Assuming people find this acceptable, I'll add it to the page when I do the cuts tonight. I'll also add the entry I wrote up for Lieutenant Sayle.

edited 1st Oct '12 4:56:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

The re-write looks good and is much better than what was there

The Chronicles Of Narnia Villains I can remember: Some listed in the YMMV's, some not.

The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe and The Magician's Nephew: Jadis I learned a word and was told to never use it. When my family warred, I still would not use it. Finally, when my forces fell and my sister attacked, she went up to ma and asked "What now sister" Then I said the cursed word

Yeah, I'm paraphrasing that. She also assaulted a police officer (In a humerous scene), took over the land of Narnia, ordered children (the heroes) killed, killed Aslan (But he rose on the third hour, or maybe it was morning), and waged a war killing a few dozen. honestly, I've heard worse, and the killing her whole dimension may just be offstage.

The Horse And His Boy: That antagonist was pretty bad (not evil, just very inefficient), his plan (though sound) failed, sending a strike party to Narnia's ally. He sought approval from his father the king, and his final act was to make funny faces at the heroes (I was confused by that part). Aslan turned him into a donkey, sent him back to his country, where he became human and the king, and made peace, but only because he feared attacking Narnia, as Aslan might turn him into a donkey again. Fails Heinous standard. I believe his name was Rabadash

Prince Caspian: Evil uncle tries to kill Caspian, and orders an attack on Narnia. He decides to renege on his deal to relinquish attacks on Narnia, despite losing in single combat to Peter. He seemed quite standard to me. Not a CM

The Voyage Of The Dawn Treader: Eustace: jerkass, standing in the way of the heroes, annoying them, and trying to steal water, ultimately fails heinous standard... wait no he isn't a villain (just an antagonist, initially), so he doesn't count. There were a lot of evil locations as antagonists (Been a while since I read the book), these locations do not count.

The Silver Chair: This witch captured a prince, hypnotized him, and binds him to the silver chair when he acts up. She also enslaved a race of ugly creatures who are subterranean. She turns into a snake at the climax and tries to kill the heroes, but they behead her, She's the second worse antagonist, IMO, next to Jadis, but Ultimately, fails heinous standard. There are also 2 groups of Giants. A species of Psychotic Manchildren, and another group of Faux Affably Evil giants who lure people in with nice hospitality and eat them (none of the victims are onscreen, save the heroes who escape).

The Last Battle: Shift: Jerkass ape who conned the Narnians with a false and unwitting Donkey dressed as Aslan, making them work for the Calormen. Fails heinous standard. Calormen commander: Just doing his job serving his country (hesitates in killing the disloyal soldier) and having his men cut the threes down, and invading Narnia, pretty standard villain, seems to truly believe in his Religion of Evil. Tash: Where the hell did that thing come from! I don't even know what if is. It's just some freaky bird pestilence "god" thing who eats Shift and takes away the commander. I have no idea what he was or why he did any of it, Aslan was rather vague on him. So no.

edited 1st Oct '12 7:58:43 PM by DrPsyche

I'd agree with axing those. None of them really measure up to Jadis, who likely doesn't qualify herself.

Anyway, it's been more than twenty-four hours since I made the post yesterday about some literature examples. No one has objected to any of the cuts I was wanting to make, and quite a few people have supported them. With that in mind I've cut: Svidrigailov (Pet the Dog, Affably Evil, not well written), Saint-Just and Pavel Young from Honor Harrington (one has good intentions, the other fails the heinous standard), Tonk Fah (only kills animals), Dilaf (wants to avenge his wife, Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds according to another poster), and Krait from Dean Koontz's The Good Guy (one line entry, lack of elaboration on what he's done).

Only one other person has commented on the Millennium Trilogy examples, so I'll leave them for now.

I've also swapped in the new write-up I did for Honor Harrington's Andre Wenecker. I think it's a considerable improvement; if people think it can be made better please don't hesitate to add to it.

Looking at the examples that are currently under discussion:

We've got two votes to keep Sir Martin from Azincourt using some sort of variation on my commentary (one of those votes, is of course, my own). No one's really commented on Obadiah Hakeswill or Kjartan the Cruel save to say that the examples are badly written. There seems to be a general agreement that Jadis needs to go, and the Wicked Witch of the West as well, and that the Chris Crutcher examples need rewrites. Wendy has two votes to cut, Constantius two, Peter Kirk two, and Cathy two or three maybe cuts.

I'll add Sayle tonight if there are no objections.

edited 1st Oct '12 8:33:50 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Chris McLean: Sadistic? Yes. Total psychopath? Yes. Biggest asshole on the planet? Yes. PURE UNSPEAKABLE EVIL?!!!!!! Not so much. Cut him.

From the Stephen King subpage:

"* Bobbi's sister Anne from The Tommyknockers might count she is a cruel heartless woman who takes a great enjoyment in verbally abusing others including her own parent's, its pretty much stated that she killed her father with all of her nagging, she is also a huge control freak and she goes to Haven the town Bobbi's living in just so she can bring her back home so she can control. Though probably the worst thing she did was when she was at the hospital after her father's death she tried to call Bobbi and after she didn't answer the phone told her family including her grieving mother that Bobbi had said that she was glad that there father was dead all out of spite."

Really? She's a bitch, but that's about it.

I remember that earlier Anne was brought up as not being an example since she was just a Jerkass. Which was weird since it was around the time we axed Patrick Hoffstekker and Percy Whitmore, who, while not heinous enough to meet the trope, were still much nastier than she was. Guess she just got overshadowed by the debates around the other Stephen King examples. Yeah, I vote cut.

edited 1st Oct '12 9:04:23 PM by OccasionalExister

What a bitch. Not a CM, but a bitch indeed.

I've added Lieutenant Sayle to the literature page.