What makes punkpunk?

This has been puzzling me for quite some time, and answers seem to be slightly vague.

Does punkpunk have to be "gritty" to be punkpunk? I've kind of gathered that brighter, friendlier works tend to be labelled as post-"punk" or occasionally "punk"-prep (though neither of these seem strictly correct imo, some works not seeming directly derived or counter to previous punkpunk works and prep being a USA-only phenomenon), but is it punk? Though what's more, what /else/ makes punkpunk? Does it have to be retro-futuristic or anachronistic in nature? Maybe geek or chic are better terms for steam/cyber/other aesthetics that aren't strictly "punk"?

edited 21st May '17 2:57:59 AM by Mysterics

It supposedly adds (least originally for first punk - Cyberpunk) the cynical or pessimistic view of the world where any form of technology is supposedly ruining everyday life.

After that, a lot of authors or genre junkies want to create their own version of Cyberpunk but with a twist (Biopunk - Body Horror/Biotechnological dystopia, Post-Cyberpunk - More matured semi-dystopia that move on from past and Solarpunk takes on dystopia genres in Punkpunk with ecological semi-utopian and realistic way).

edited 5th Sep '17 3:24:30 PM by Franco-America2018

Although it's worth noting that the second-most popular and well-known "punk" genre, Steampunk, often isn't dark at all. In fact, while K. W. Jeter may have coined the term, I think it caught on in part because of The Difference Engine (1990) by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling—the two were pioneers of cyberpunk, so their foray into Victoriana helped cement the "punk" part of the name.

And since many modern "-punk" genres actually owe more to Steam- than to Cyber-, (e.g. Clock Punk, Diesel Punk), I'm not sure it's reasonable to describe -punk(s) as dark. That was certainly the intent with Cyber-, originally, but things have shifted since then.

I think "gritty" is a better descriptor than "dark". For me that means more up close and personal, without much effort to soften details. It's more about society and people living in the world they're given. It's a harsh or dangerous world, one way or another. It's also about them living and coping with the advancing technology (which doesn't exclude magic) that's usually not entirely reliable, and how that forces people to change their lives.

It seems like a lot of the punkpunk settings have to do with the world becoming dominated by one particular brand of technology (or, in some settings, brand of magic): cybernetics in Cyberpunk settings, steam engines in Steampunk, clockwork mechanisms in Clock Punk, etc.

Like, in most cyberpunk stories, computers and robotics technologies are super-duper advanced, but the setting will rarely have made similar great leaps forward in other areas of science: no meeting aliens, terraforming Mars, or building giant underwater cities.

I get the feeling that the "X Punk" isn't about the grittyness or the technology. It's about rebelling against a society that is purposefully limiting or at least accidentally dehumanizing.

The List:

Stone Punk: While The Flintstones cartoons were definitely not rebellious, the new comic book at least points out the flaws in it's society. Not much rebellion, just a realization that maybe things need to change. Analysis: Not Punk Punk.

Sandal Punk: The Punks are humanity itself, in the actually punk examples, rebelling against the cruel nature that made us instead of of being animals. Analysis: Punk Punk against a lack of technology. Might need some removals.

Dungeon Punk: Clearly notes that the magic needs to be accompanied by rebellion, although in a roundabout way that needs to be simplified. There are some examples that don't appear to have enough rebellion. Analysis: Punk Punk with magic in place of technology, the rebellion could be against anything. Needs some clean-up.

Actually, this is looking like an issue. Punk Punk settings seem to be rarer under that definition than they look. Clock Punk is certainly "Punk Punk" but the examples say it isn't.

I propose a solution of renaming: Anything which isn't "punk enough" is renamed to "Modern X Age" (after "Modern Stone Age Family") if based on the past or on retrofuturism, and "X Tech Futurism" or "X Tech Dystopianism" if the work is futuristic (for normal-to-lighter works and darker works respectively). I'll write up a complete list including the above with that solution in mind to see if it works.

edited 10th Sep '17 10:10:49 AM by SimYouLater

This is not a TRS thread. We do not do renaming here. If you want to rename or redefine it, make a post in TRS, with clear evidence that there's a problem that needs to be changed.

The problem is a lack of a single definition. It seems to be defined in three different ways:

• Punk Punk is about rebelling against society.

or

• Punk Punk is about being a technologically advanced Dystopia.

or

• Punk Punk is about advanced technology and the adverse effects it can have, even if it isn't dystopian.

The other problem is that I can see this problem not being "trope repair-worthy". Tokyo Is the Center of the Universe =/= Creator Provincialism if it is caused by real life limitations apparently isn't, and the discussion about people not wanting a supertrope happened for the first time 5 years ago.

edited 10th Sep '17 10:44:46 AM by SimYouLater

Self-correction. I think an easier solution is for Punk Punk setting tropes to be two or more of the following...

• The Protagonists are La Résistance
• The setting is Dystopian or at least crapsack-y
• The plot is partially about our relationships with technology (or Magitek equivalent)
• The setting is a Utopia under siege (possibly from within)
• The protagonists are trying to turn a World Half Full into a Utopia

edited 10th Sep '17 12:22:04 PM by SimYouLater

[strike]I posted about this in Trope Talk and it got locked instantly: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1505072916012205500&page=1#1[/strike]

Apparently I got a message about having never been in TRS before (I have). Strange. Anyways, TRS topic is pending moderator approval.

edited 10th Sep '17 1:15:44 PM by SimYouLater

All new TRS threads are autolocked, nothing odd about that.

or

That basically, Waterdown version or only compared for Cyberpunk, Postcyberpunk, and Solarpunk?

But some of these Punks are already begin used by Mainstream authors and genre junkies to be sub-genre or alternatives to Cyberpunk or other non-'technological' Punks like Biopunk or Steampunk.

And also really don't know that 'Graffiti Punk' was a real page at one point!?

edited 11th Sep '17 7:15:10 PM by Franco-America2018

I'm not one of those rare people with a "photographic" memory, for sure. I do remember a lot of things better than you would expect however. I know someone in real life who also uses this site, and they say they remember it too even though they tend to forget old things entirely.

So yes, I believe we did have Graffiti Punk. I'm not going to claim we had "Modem Punk" or "Kid Punk" because we didn't and I know that for sure. Those will have to earn merit in the Trope Launch Pad. Grafffiti Punk was a trope and I don't know why it's gone, but I've been on this site since 2007 so I can see how some older pages are affected by Technology Marches On and how things have drastically changed since that time.

I knew it! Should have checked: https://web.archive.org/web/20090427062155/https://tvtropes.org:80/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunkPunk

Sorry, just glad I found it.

So yes, it was real. It was also never fully launched, however. Here is what the page said before the Great Crash:

Graffiti Punk: An emerging setting based on urban youth culture and gadgets such as hip-hop music, rollerblading and graffiti tagging. Examples include Air Gear,Video Game/Jet Set Radio, and The World Ends with You. The name is in progress — other candidates for this setting name include: Skate Punk, Rave Punk.

It now has other examples - see Mirror's Edge and Sunset Overdrive - but the page at that point also had such dubious examples as "Weedpunk" and "Mash Up Punk". It also uses the namesGear Punk and Sumer Punk, not to mention Stone Punk did not have it's own page.

As for Punk Punk, if the definition is "people use it for the genre", I actually see no problem. We just have to verify it's actually called that.

EDIT: After some deliberation, I am throwing in the unhat towards Graffiti Punk. It will be listed via a link to Graffiti Town as the setting should instead be synonymous with the Punk Punk type.

Other potential Punk Punk settings proposed:

Social Media Dystopia should in fact be Punk Punk.

Modem Punk should be linked to hollywoodHacking.

"Kidpunk" will need some thought. Nobody calls it that, so I'm not sure if tropeworthyness is influenced by how easy finding a good name is. I also don't know what the limit is on how far examples can be separated, so can someone clear that up?

"Post-Punk Punk" is possibly better called "ISO Standard Hunger Games Dystopia'' to show the best meaning.

EDIT 2: If anyone thinks "Punk Punk" needs more definition than "already called that" they can fix it when a better solution is found. For now I've reverted Social Punk and binned/merged Grafitti Punk.

edited 11th Sep '17 11:36:05 PM by SimYouLater

I agree with Raven, the actual punks are generally "this is the prevalent technology" and really, the entire "-punk" is largely just bad snowcloning. At this point I don't think -punk really has any actual meaning.

edited 12th Sep '17 1:11:31 PM by Larkmarn

Oh, Well and that fine if you revived it for Nostalgic purposes and I not going to stop you, Because I can't literally undo it because of my Suspension.

But examples like Steampunk, Sandalpunk, and Mythpunk are Fantasy based/influenced but adds Cyberpunk and Post-modernist tropes.

For your earliest post in this subforum, One is for renamed Stonepunk as "Modern Stone Age Family" and removed from Punk Punk just because Flintstones is main Ur-example/Trope Codifier of Punk main influence is sound weak. And It could be its own separate trope page and as subgenre for Stonepunk itself that used Comedy/Sitcom elements for Kids or Pre-teens I guess.

For Sandalpunk example have Technology play an important role if your story may take place in [maybe Fictional] Roman Empiresque or other Ancient nations from 500 BC to 500 AD. And again just because they have Fantasy elements make some cleanup, Fantasy was inspired by Ancient mythologies like Roman/Greek to make sense of use these elements, And since I think of renaming it as 'Classical Punk' as a new or alternative name?

And for Dungeon Punk, lean for yes that half of time that genre is fit also as subgenre of Science Fantasy alongside with Punk Punk.

Again would thanks, due to lot people misusing Punk meaning as means of trying to be too creative for/against Cyberpunk.

edited 12th Sep '17 6:57:08 PM by Franco-America2018

So, had some time to think about this. Also tried getting help here for my posts not being understood, and it might have been due to a personal issue that was stressing me out since I'm not getting "do this differently" feedback.

As far as I can see, "do they already call it that" and "is there three examples" seems like it's still a good metric. I won't change it myself, seeing as how badly I screwed up and knowing I should earn trust back before using the edit button, even with my edit ban now lifted.

Stonepunk, Sandalpunk, etc. Maybe it needs some cleanup, based on that definition. Socialpunk isn't one of those that need cleanup, from what I've seen. Grafittipunk could have been a thing, but it wasn't thanks to a random bit of bad luck 8 years ago.

Aside from that, I'll drop "Kidpunk", I might have picked it up from some old topic on /tg/ that never got attention anyway. I'm not sure how to handle "Post-Punk Punk" now that I've thought of a better name, "Biodieselpunk" (starvation caused by inequal distribution of crops, genetic and/or social engineering, and vaguely Orwellian dystopias seem common themes, but with the definition proposed...)

Any votes to confirm if that's a better approach?

edited 1st Oct '17 12:13:07 AM by SimYouLater