The Scrappy Cleanup

It's still better to find out what Japan thinks of those particular Pokemon, because if the Japanese fanbase is okay with them while the majority of Westerners don't like them, that would be Americans Hate Tingle, which is mutually exclusive from The Scrappy.

Also, getting last place on a popularity poll doesn't mean you're actually hated. All it means is that not many people consider you to be their #1 favorite; for all we know, the last place character could be a lot of people's #2 favorite. As mentioned before on this thread: popularity polls are good at telling you who isn't a Scrappy, but lousy at telling you who is.

edited 3rd Apr '18 12:45:48 PM by dragonfire5000

... Don't we have a rule against listing races as Scrappies? I'm pretty sure we decided a while ago that only individual Pokémon could count, and we wouldn't list whole species. I mean, isn't that why we cut the Ewoks from Star Wars?

Is anyone familiar with the Japanese fanbase able to verify what they think about Pokémon such as Jynx, Mr. Mime and Garbodor in that case?

If that's the case, then that solves the problem.

edited 3rd Apr '18 12:52:59 PM by Chasem

Lets see the Japanese only Pokemon Election ranked her as 234th out of 720 so yeah Americans Hate Tingle and Overshadowed by Controversy.

In this case though the race is the character in the Pokemon games. There is no difference in personality or anything, the only difference between one mon and another of the same race is stats.

edited 3rd Apr '18 1:15:23 PM by Memers

That applies to the game.

Where there's life, there's hope.

I don't think that's a good indicator for Jynx actually being well-liked, in the same vein as what you said about Simisear. A lot of memetically-hated characters garner a fanbase precisely *for* being hated, and it does give them some extra recognition, so even in the West, Jynx and Mr. Mime would probably be more popular than, say, Wurmple. Jynx doesn't even rank that high. In the end, it'd depend on what fans actually say about the Pokémon and the general vibe of how people react to it in various communities (online or offline).

That said, have we established at this point that these Pokémon species don't qualify for The Scrappy? Could we make a new trope for species that are hated in fiction (say "Species Scrappy" or something)?

edited 3rd Apr '18 3:11:29 PM by Chasem

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the connotation of a "Scrappy Species."

Where there's life, there's hope.

I'm loathe to create any more Scrappy-related audience reactions, due to their tendency to attract complaining.

As for the Pokemon examples brought up, I want to see what the vast majority of the Japanese fanbase thinks about them. Even after that, I want to see evidence that the Westerners that actually hate those Pokemon aren't actually just a very, very loud Vocal Minority.

Sounds good to me!

And if it comes down to it, at least in the West, The Other Wiki usually says something along the line of "<character name> received negative reception from critics" on its own character articles, culling from reliable sources, and we can use those sources to justify any new/existing entries.

edited 3rd Apr '18 4:47:41 PM by Chasem

Though if you go that route, you'd need a way to provide concrete proof that such a negative reception is actually widespread through the entire fanbase and not just a few salty people bitching and moaning. You should also keep in mind that just because there's a popular community dedicated to a certain work doesn't mean they represent the majority of the fanbase.

For example, take Fire Emblem. Its most well-known Western community is probably the site Serenes Forest. Serenes Forest has, as of this writing, 31,310 members. Assuming the Fire Emblem fanbase consists of only 1,000,000 members (there's a lot more, but let's use this number for the sake of this example), Serenes Forest only makes up 3.1% of the entire fanbase. So that means even if the entire forum unanimously hates a character, that just means 3.1% of the fanbase hates said character.

Moral of the story: be careful when gauging how hated a character actually is through Internet communities.

edited 3rd Apr '18 7:13:05 PM by dragonfire5000

Awakening sold 1,800,000 physical copies, so let's assume that there are 1,800,000 fans (discounting fans who don't buy physical copies due to digital purchase, piracy, or don't play the game).

Where there's life, there's hope.

Okay, I found the Pokémon discussion from way back in the thread. Looking back, a major reason most of them were cut were because the entries could easily fit under other tropes (Goddamned Bats, Tier Induced Scrappy) or they were just complaining how ugly they looked. It seemed the decision to focus on individual characters was mostly supported by the thread.

Pokemons may fit if they're treated as characters, and their characterisation is what people hate about them. It's not about their game mechanics (which we have tropes for), nor just their looks. How they act, what personality they have, and so on, that's what's important for The Scrappy. It's quite common in games for a species, unit type, or other non-unique characters to be treated as a singular character, rather than as just one of many. It's a bit of a tricky situation to figure out what fits where, though, but generally speaking, characterisation of the group in those cases tend to assume the role of a singular character, sort of like a spokesman for the entire group. And again, it's about characterisation, not game mechanics.

edited 3rd Apr '18 9:27:27 PM by AnotherDuck

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I don't think any Pokemon is widely hated for characterization

Where there's life, there's hope.

This was recently added to the Anime Scrappy Page Code Geass section:

• Gino Weinberg is without a doubt, the blandest character in the series. He seems to serve as either female fanservice or somebody to fill time during the down moments of R2. His role is easily filled by other, more important characters, and his presence in the promotional art of R2 seems to imply he was to have a bigger role, but in the final show his only important moments are crippling and destroying Lelouch's Knightmare Frame and some poorly-done attempt to make him into a romantic interest for Kallen. He's almost completely excluded from the epilogue in the final episode, appearing in a photograph of Ohgi's wedding but outside of that is absent. As of the release of the second compilation film he has once again found himself in an incredibly prominent focus on the poster, implying that *maybe* he will actually do something or become something other than a Flat Character.

None of this really sounds like points of hatred, rather qualifications for They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character. Not to mention that Gino was on the page once before, until I myself removed him over a year ago after noting he came across more like a Base-Breaking Character. Knowing now the proper procedure for handling The Scrappy Pages, what should be done about Gino?

edited 4th Apr '18 5:41:24 AM by RebelFalcon

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Cut it. Reads like a personal complaint.

Reposting this from the previous page so it doesn't get lost:

I think these examples on the Mario subpage should be removed:

• The Chimp: The reasons given are gameplay related and have nothing to do with his character.
• Fluzzard: Again, the reasons given are gameplay related. Though Fluzzard would fit better under Scrappy Mechanic.
• Huff N. Puff: It just states his boss battle as the reason players hate him, which has nothing to do with his character.
• TEC: He isn't a scrappy because there are people who find his subplot with Peach to be interesting instead of Squicky. Though he may be a Base-Breaking Character.
• Francis: A lot of fans find him to be funny. Plus the fact that his example starts with "to some extent" suggests that it's shoehorned.
• Starlow: I feel she's more of a Base-Breaking Character as she does have her fans.

I would like to move to remove a character from the Dangan Ronpa subpage.

• Mahiru Koizumi is also very unpopular, due to her often-abrasive personality. Her main humanizing traits are her motherly and protective nature and clear insecurity issues, which is marred by her constantly protecting Hiyoko (herself a perennial scrappy, as noted above) from abuse, while letting her dish abuse out at everyone else without bothering to corral her behavior whatsoever (though to her credit, after her death, her kindness started to change her). Danganronpa 3 won her some Woobie points by showing how she was bullied, but not quite enough to fully save her. Unfortunately, much of this unpopularity ends up also stemming from a much simpler, more shallow place: a lot of people just don't think she stands out, Koizumi being the most down-to-earth character in the overall very boisterous and explosive cast, completely refusing to give her character a second glance as a result.

To me this entry just feels out of place since the main argument is that she's "unpopular" as it were, rather than outright dislike. I'm also suggesting this because in recent times she's become somewhat more popular among circles such as Reddit and Amino. I think she's more of an average DR character that shouldn't be given a Scrappy, Base Breaker or Darkhorse status such as other characters in the game like Peko or Nekomaru.

Someone just added Calvin's dad as a scrappy on YMMV.Calvin And Hobbes.

I would like to add an example to the Tales Series scrappy page, for Tales of Legendia's entry:

• Shirley. She's a Base-Breaking Character in the East, with a lot of Eastern fans hating her as a hero but loving her as a villain. In the West, she's mostly viewed negatively. Western fans believe Shirley to be a Damsel Scrappy, and her Love Martyr tendencies are viewed as an extreme overreaction to Senel rejecting her Anguished Declaration of Love. The game also puts a lot of the blame for Shirley's Face–Heel Turn squarely on Senel's shoulders. While Senel isn't entirely blameless - it was shown that had Senel just opened his mouth about his Dark Secret, things might have gone a lot smoother - Western fans viewed it as the game trying to absolve Shirley of any wrongdoing. Gameplay-wise, she only has one spell that is unique just to her, and it isn't acquired until very late in the game, meaning she doesn't stand out much in combat, either. A few fan portrayals of Shirley play up her bad qualities in order to ship Senel with Chloe instead.

The fantasy RPG videos that play in my head are amazing.

Sounds more like Americans Hate Tingle to me. Even if she is a Base-Breaking Character in Japan (have a source for that?), it still means she has a sizeable fanbase in her game's homeland, which disqualifies her as The Scrappy.

She gets a LOT of hate, like I have never seen anyone defend her beyond a 'not THAT bad' defense. She is generally the useless terribly executed 'not a Damsel in Distress but actually is Damsel in Distress' and that's not even getting into the terrible badly written twist.

In Japan she has a lot of haters there too like to the point I dont think she is even at the 'Basebreaking' level. She has some fan art so she must have a some fans somewhere but I bet a lot of it was created before the game's release and every other Tales main girl has thousands more fanart.

edited 7th Apr '18 11:24:36 PM by Memers

Have a credible source for the hate from the Japanese side of the fandom?

I have no clue what the fandom for Tales of Legendia is like, so something stronger than a "Take my word for it" would be nice.

Well there is a remarkable amount of guro fan art existing of her, more than normal fanart.

As for character polls she has never appeared in the top 30 of any of them, even when her game was the most current game. Jay and Chloe made it on there and they were supporting characters, Jay also had serious staying power for such a minor party member.

edited 7th Apr '18 11:54:32 PM by Memers

Character polls are good at finding out who isn't a Scrappy, but bad at finding out who is. As I've said before, character polls only take into account who your #1 favorite character is. It doesn't tell you how many people consider a character their #2 favorite, #3 favorite, #4 favorite, etc.

If the character poll showed the character in question ranking high, it's a safe assumption that she probably has lots of fans since a good number of people consider her their #1 favorite character. If the character poll shows her ranking low, all it means is that not too many people consider her their #1 favorite. For all we know, lots of people might consider her their #2 favorite, which would still disqualify her as The Scrappy.

As for the guro fanart, I'm not convinced that's indicative of her having lots of haters, or at least enough haters to consist of a vast majority. I'm assuming that '"Tales of Legendia'' has at least 490,000 fans based on the total number of units sold for the PlayStation 2 (using this site as a source for the number), so unless one can prove that the number of artists drawing those guro fanart makes up a vast enough majority of those 490,000 people, it's probably nothing conclusive at all.

Anyone else more familiar with the Tales fandom care to chime in here?