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Trope Description Improvement Drive:

 501 Septimus Heap, Thu, 17th Jan '13 3:13:06 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Quasar
Tsundere is getting a bit too much self-demo.

 502 Marq FJA, Thu, 17th Jan '13 3:44:08 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
I don't see any self-demo parts except at the beginning and the end of the description, plus the line right after the example listing, and in similar places on the subpages.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 503 Septimus Heap, Thu, 17th Jan '13 3:45:51 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Quasar
Yeah, bad terminology from me. When I see that page, I'd like to see the description immediately instead of some first person stuff.

 504 Septimus Heap, Fri, 18th Jan '13 6:36:34 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Quasar
Also, Amoral Attorney. Does it need the Real Life paragraph? I find it rather distracting.

 505 Noaqiyeum, Fri, 18th Jan '13 6:46:24 AM from Ockham Asylum Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
I rather think it does, actually.
14. Be the Winslow.
 506 nrjxll, Fri, 18th Jan '13 7:29:45 PM Relationship Status: Not war
[up][up][up]I'm inclined to agree.

Petting Zoo Person
Amoral Attorney doesn't seem like the kind of page to need a real-life section to me, beyond perhaps a mention that (like everyone else) real-world attorneys can be assholes/there are lots of jokes on the subject.
I must be cruel, but to be kind That bad may begin, and worse be left behind
 508 Xtifr, Fri, 18th Jan '13 11:53:45 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
edit: never mind, I misunderstood what was being discussed.

edited 18th Jan '13 11:55:26 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
 509 oneuglybunny, Sat, 19th Jan '13 4:50:13 AM from Binghamton, New York, US
useless legacy
Allow me to agree that much of the Amoral Attorney trope description would qualify better under "Real Life" examples or as an Analysis. Permit me to propose a more concise definition?

[begin] The Amoral Attorney practices law for one reason only: to win. Guilt or innocence are irrelevant, while truth and justice are mere abstract concepts to an Amoral Attorney. He is versed in every syllable of the law, and will crush the opposition with an unyielding reading of a subparagraph, or obfuscate due process with myriad ambiguities in that same subparagraph. It is not Justice, but the Amoral Attorney who must prevail.

Be aware that an Amoral Attorney is not unethical. An Amoral Attorney remains entirely Lawful, but his strength lies in Weasel Words and court protocol. He needs only one tiny fault in the opposing argument to torpedo the entire case.

In essence, the Amoral Attorney is a Magnificent Bastard who is also a Friend of the Court. [end]

The last two paragraphs are fine, though the sentence about "unethical" should be removed. A breach of ethics is unlawful in itself, and the Amoral Attorney must remain Lawful.

 510 Ms CC 93, Tue, 22nd Jan '13 5:01:55 PM from In your dreams <3 Relationship Status: Singularity
Welcome to Me
I want to improve the description & examples of the trope "Butt Monkey" It does't have any problems, But I saw this part on the discussion page and I do think it will fit the examples on each page


In an attempt to save space through page cutting, why don't we implement a Type X system like with the Anti Hero. The way I see it, there's three types of Butt Monkey.

  1. Type 1: They suffer a lot of abuse because they had it coming as a result of bad karma. (The Jerk Ass butt monkeys like Daffy Duck go here.)
  2. Type 2: They were asking for it because they're idiots. Homer Simpson is an example here who could also be type 1 depending on the season.
  3. Type 3: They do nothing to deserve their fate besides from the powers that be hating them. Meg is an example of a type 3. Type 3 is likely to become a Desiginated Monkey to fans.

This also brings forth a question asked by the Nostalgia Critic in regards to type 1 (something I shall call the Butt Monkey viscous cycle). Is the character a Butt Monkey because they're a jerk (thus their misery being karmic punishment), or are they a bitter, cynical jerk BECAUSE they're a Butt Monkey (they act like jerks because of unjust treatment which provokes more punishment in a viscous cycle). Tink is an example of the former due to being such a lech while Doofensmirtz is an example of the later given his bad upbringing. The later case is a good method of Deconstruction for the trope because it realistically points out that people who people/the universe shafts for no reason can easily become bitter, cynical people thus resulting in a Self Fulfilling Prophecy of sorts when it comes to karma. Great idea for a YKTTW discussion.

edited 22nd Jan '13 5:08:53 PM by MsCC93

Petting Zoo Person
Ugh, those sorts of type labels hurt more than they help in my experience.
I must be cruel, but to be kind That bad may begin, and worse be left behind
Seeking for Light
We are, as wiki policy, doing our level best to move away from Type X classifications in trope descriptions. So please don't rewrite the description to include them.

Definitely not a weirdo
555 strikes me as being a little bit long-winded. Perhaps a bit of it could stand to be moved to analysis.
 514 Septimus Heap, Wed, 23rd Jan '13 7:26:33 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Quasar
[up]Whew. That is loong.

Agree on shipping a big chunk of it off to Analysis/

 515 Ultimatum, Wed, 23rd Jan '13 9:53:45 AM from The Amiga forest Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
Has returned.
I think we should cut it down to this..

"Virtually all US phone numbers on fictional programmes are made up of the following:

Area Code - 555 - four random digits

"555" is an exchange number commonly thought to be reserved by the phone companies for use by TV and movies in order to prevent prank phone calls to real people. In fact, only 555-0100 through 555-0199 are now specifically reserved for fictional use, and the other numbers have been released for actual assignment. The 555 exchange was originally useful for this purpose because it was (in North America) reserved for various internal phone company service numbers, so calling one of the 555 numbers would not have reached an actual customer.

Note: In Japan, 555 is the equivalent of 911 in America, an emergency phone number to dial.

Not to be confused with A Kamen Rider of similar naming. Or a popular timer IC of the same name. Also, not to be confused with 666 .

 516 Septimus Heap, Wed, 23rd Jan '13 1:20:37 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Quasar
Agreed.

 517 Xtifr, Wed, 23rd Jan '13 1:34:00 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
I find the British spelling, "programmes", a little disconcerting on a trope about a US practice. :)
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
 518 Fighteer, Wed, 23rd Jan '13 1:37:19 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I will EXTERMINATE your unhappiness!
Cute. Yeah, if this is sourced in the U.S., then let's use U.S. spellings just for the sake of verisimilitude. Otherwise I wouldn't care at all. evil grin
 519 Ultimatum, Thu, 24th Jan '13 3:33:46 PM from The Amiga forest Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
Has returned.
555 Description has been improved.

edited 24th Jan '13 3:34:23 PM by Ultimatum

 520 Nohbody, Fri, 25th Jan '13 1:59:07 AM from Somewhere in Dixie Relationship Status: Mu
Just zis guy
Just FYI, I moved a lot of the talk about RL spacecraft design in Standard Human Spaceship to the Analysis page. I'm sure the information is useful to someone, but it's not really necessary for understanding the trope.
 521 nrjxll, Fri, 25th Jan '13 2:42:35 AM Relationship Status: Not war
I don't think most of that has anything to do with the trope.

 522 Nohbody, Fri, 25th Jan '13 2:46:30 AM from Somewhere in Dixie Relationship Status: Mu
Just zis guy
Well, I can kinda understand talk about RL human spaceship design, particularly given the works that try to go for something akin to realism (or at least approximations of same), which is why I didn't just delete it outright. It definitely didn't belong on the main page, though.
Just came across Occult Detective and it has a very vague description. I think it may need TRS from sheer lack of a definition, but maybe the description can be fixed in here.

Basically, it has an attempt at a self demonstrating description that doesn't actually describe the trope. There are a few personality traits that such a character can have, but that's it. Readers are assumed to instinctively know what an Occult Detective does.

OK, they investigate occult stuff, but how often do they need to do it to count for the trope? Does a guy who does it once in his life and never again count? What counts as investigation? How deliberate do they have to be about it? Do they have to be a mundane mortal themselves, or can they also be an occult something?

What counts as occult? Do the things they investigate have to be real supernatural things, or can they be aliens or conspiracies or ScoobyDooHoaxes? Do they have to occur in a world where the occult is secret, unknown, buried, behind a Masquerade, or frequently disbelieved?

And why does the description have a line stating that this trope is similar to Dungeons and Dragons?

I can't tell what is or isn't misuse, but I went and commented out the many ZeroContextExamples. The ones that are left usually have barely any explanation, though. I know ZCE are nothing new, but this trope doesn't seem to have enough definition to attach context to in the first place.

edited 28th Jan '13 8:49:39 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
 524 Voyd 211, Tue, 29th Jan '13 6:10:20 AM from Somewhere in the Midwest
Let's rumba!
Does anyone else think that the description for Animalistic Abomination is too short? Or am I just crazy?
So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean, if I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be?
 525 Marq FJA, Tue, 29th Jan '13 7:31:25 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
No, you're not crazy. It could use a lot of fleshing out... as does Robot Dognote .

edited 29th Jan '13 7:33:44 AM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
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