Trope Description Improvement Drive

Tsundere is getting a bit too much self-demo.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I don't see any self-demo parts except at the beginning and the end of the description, plus the line right after the example listing, and in similar places on the subpages.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Yeah, bad terminology from me. When I see that page, I'd like to see the description immediately instead of some first person stuff.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Also, Amoral Attorney. Does it need the Real Life paragraph? I find it rather distracting.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I rather think it does, actually.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

I'm inclined to agree.

Amoral Attorney doesn't seem like the kind of page to need a real-life section to me, beyond perhaps a mention that (like everyone else) real-world attorneys can be assholes/there are lots of jokes on the subject.

I must be cruel, but to be kind That bad may begin, and worse be left behind

edit: never mind, I misunderstood what was being discussed.

edited 18th Jan '13 11:55:26 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Allow me to agree that much of the Amoral Attorney trope description would qualify better under "Real Life" examples or as an Analysis. Permit me to propose a more concise definition?

[begin] The Amoral Attorney practices law for one reason only: to win. Guilt or innocence are irrelevant, while truth and justice are mere abstract concepts to an Amoral Attorney. He is versed in every syllable of the law, and will crush the opposition with an unyielding reading of a subparagraph, or obfuscate due process with myriad ambiguities in that same subparagraph. It is not Justice, but the Amoral Attorney who must prevail.

Be aware that an Amoral Attorney is not unethical. An Amoral Attorney remains entirely Lawful, but his strength lies in Weasel Words and court protocol. He needs only one tiny fault in the opposing argument to torpedo the entire case.

In essence, the Amoral Attorney is a Magnificent Bastard who is also a Friend of the Court. [end]

The last two paragraphs are fine, though the sentence about "unethical" should be removed. A breach of ethics is unlawful in itself, and the Amoral Attorney must remain Lawful.

I want to improve the description & examples of the trope "Butt-Monkey" It does't have any problems, But I saw this part on the discussion page and I do think it will fit the examples on each page

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In an attempt to save space through page cutting, why don't we implement a Type X system like with the Anti Hero. The way I see it, there's three types of Butt Monkey.

1. Type 1: They suffer a lot of abuse because they had it coming as a result of bad karma. (The Jerk Ass butt monkeys like Daffy Duck go here.)
2. Type 2: They were asking for it because they're idiots. Homer Simpson is an example here who could also be type 1 depending on the season.
3. Type 3: They do nothing to deserve their fate besides from the powers that be hating them. Meg is an example of a type 3. Type 3 is likely to become a Desiginated Monkey to fans.

This also brings forth a question asked by the Nostalgia Critic in regards to type 1 (something I shall call the Butt Monkey viscous cycle). Is the character a Butt Monkey because they're a jerk (thus their misery being karmic punishment), or are they a bitter, cynical jerk BECAUSE they're a Butt Monkey (they act like jerks because of unjust treatment which provokes more punishment in a viscous cycle). Tink is an example of the former due to being such a lech while Doofensmirtz is an example of the later given his bad upbringing. The later case is a good method of Deconstruction for the trope because it realistically points out that people who people/the universe shafts for no reason can easily become bitter, cynical people thus resulting in a Self Fulfilling Prophecy of sorts when it comes to karma. Great idea for a YKTTW discussion.

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edited 22nd Jan '13 5:08:53 PM by MsCC93

Ugh, those sorts of type labels hurt more than they help in my experience.

I must be cruel, but to be kind That bad may begin, and worse be left behind

We are, as wiki policy, doing our level best to move away from Type X classifications in trope descriptions. So please don't rewrite the description to include them.

555 strikes me as being a little bit long-winded. Perhaps a bit of it could stand to be moved to analysis.

Bigotry will NEVER be welcome on TV Tropes.

Whew. That is loong.

Agree on shipping a big chunk of it off to Analysis/

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I think we should cut it down to this..

New theme music also a box

Agreed.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I find the British spelling, "programmes", a little disconcerting on a trope about a US practice. :)

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Cute. Yeah, if this is sourced in the U.S., then let's use U.S. spellings just for the sake of verisimilitude. Otherwise I wouldn't care at all.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

555 Description has been improved.

edited 24th Jan '13 3:34:23 PM by Ultimatum

New theme music also a box

Just FYI, I moved a lot of the talk about RL spacecraft design in Standard Human Spaceship to the Analysis page. I'm sure the information is useful to someone, but it's not really necessary for understanding the trope.

All your safe space are belong to Trump

I don't think most of that has anything to do with the trope.

Well, I can kinda understand talk about RL human spaceship design, particularly given the works that try to go for something akin to realism (or at least approximations of same), which is why I didn't just delete it outright. It definitely didn't belong on the main page, though.

All your safe space are belong to Trump

Just came across Occult Detective and it has a very vague description. I think it may need TRS from sheer lack of a definition, but maybe the description can be fixed in here.

Basically, it has an attempt at a self demonstrating description that doesn't actually describe the trope. There are a few personality traits that such a character can have, but that's it. Readers are assumed to instinctively know what an Occult Detective does.

OK, they investigate occult stuff, but how often do they need to do it to count for the trope? Does a guy who does it once in his life and never again count? What counts as investigation? How deliberate do they have to be about it? Do they have to be a mundane mortal themselves, or can they also be an occult something?

What counts as occult? Do the things they investigate have to be real supernatural things, or can they be aliens or conspiracies or ScoobyDooHoaxes? Do they have to occur in a world where the occult is secret, unknown, buried, behind a Masquerade, or frequently disbelieved?

And why does the description have a line stating that this trope is similar to Dungeons and Dragons?

I can't tell what is or isn't misuse, but I went and commented out the many ZeroContextExamples. The ones that are left usually have barely any explanation, though. I know ZCE are nothing new, but this trope doesn't seem to have enough definition to attach context to in the first place.

edited 28th Jan '13 8:49:39 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Does anyone else think that the description for Animalistic Abomination is too short? Or am I just crazy?

No, you're not crazy. It could use a lot of fleshing out... as does Robot Dog^note And no, I don't know why this trope, Mechanical Horse, and Animal Mecha (which is Humongous Mecha-specific) don't have a supertrope; I've made a note to create a YKTTW draft for this missing supertrope..

edited 29th Jan '13 7:33:44 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.