Headscratchers: Dawn of War
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- What is up with the name of this game? Has every faction just discovered the use of weapons, and are trying them out for the first time or something?
- The name refers to the mission Dawn of War from the tabletop game.
- Except that the Dawn of War mission has only existed since 4th edition - after the game came out.
- Rule of Cool, because "Warhammer 40K: Same killing stuff again" wouldn't have same effect.
- Warhammer 40,000: Same Shit, Different Day would be a lot truer to the source material, though.
- And there you go. In the grimdark of the 41st Millennium, every dawn is a DAWN OF WAR.
- It's the dawn of the war between the Blood Ravens and the daemon of Maledictus.
- Dark Crusade: The buildings for every race are either dropped down from space or warped in, so why can't you have access to them in the quarry level, and yet have access to them in the (underground) Necron stronghold?
- Isn't the Stealthsuit phrase, "We will steal it right from under their noses!" a strange one to come from a species that has no nose? Why do the Flayed Ones damage the morale of the Dark Eldar units when surely they've seen it all before? Why did the Tau give their Soulstorm base the romantic name of 'Sword Moon' when they avoid melee combat like rape? What the hell was Eliphas the Inheritor doing for 10,000 years prior to the Dark Crusade? Shouldn't he either be dead or a Daemon Prince by now?
- The Stealthsuit pilots could have picked it up from humans who joined the Tau Empire, and a sword is a pretty common symbol of precision, speed and lethality, which would fit the Tau's usual tactics and strategy.
- That may be true of our culture, but is it true of theirs?
- They weren't always using those pulse rifles. Melee weapons would have been easier to make and use, and since most ranged weapons before guns also rely on physical strength for their range and power, those wouldn't be much more effective. Besides, doesn't Commander Farsight have a sword on his battlesuit?
- The Tau do not have noses. The Tau are fighting every other faction in the galaxy, who have noses. The sentence "We (noseless Tau) will steal right from under their (nose-having aliens) nosess" therefore makes sense.
- It could also be a Cultural Translation if we assume the Tau have a similar phrase (perhaps "in front of their nasal slits").
- Flayed ones: Because a killer robot with bloody claws wearing the skin of someone you know is going to shake you up, no matter who you are.
- Eliphas: He was chilling in the Eye of Terror with the rest of the Word Bearers.
- Eliphas is a member of the most organised and second most powerful legion he could have been a later recruit or a founding member, Chaos marines are technically immortal because constantly being in the warp has weird effects on both time and the person involved.
- All space marines are technically immortal.
- No only Chaos Marines that's why the only Marines still alive from the Heresy are are Chaos Marines, except for all the people still alive since then of course.
- Eliphas may have been a Chaos Lord at the time of the Dark Crusade, but 10,000 years before, during the Horus Heresy, he was just a rank-and-file soldier. He probably spent much of that time rising through the ranks.
- The intro for the Chaos Campaign says he was an Aspiring Chaos Champion. After the whole 'Basilica of Torment' thing, he spent his time becoming an Exalted Chaos Lord.
- It just bugs me that Relic did not even bother to follow even the basic principles of how the Alpha Legion acts. None of the things they do would be what the alpha's do.
- For one thing, Bale breaks rule one he doesn't look like Alpharius. They all try to look like Alpharius to deceive people, but Bale just calls himself that.
- Bale is also tactically stupid. The Alpha Legion are all manipulative bastards with great tactics. Sindri was more indicative of how they act but again he doesn't pretend to be Alpharius. It would be confusing gameplay-wish if everyone would be Alpharius, I realize. I wouldn't mind Bale just being outed as like a World Eater dressed like an Alpha Legion. It annoys me because next to the Thousand Sons they are the only interesting Chaos legion.
- Can we get examples of what the Alphas did 'wrong'? Not everyone's memorised the fluff, heh.
- Alpha Legion doctrine mandates that everyone looks like their primarch, partly to hide the existence of the Twin, and partly to confuse and disorient enemy intelligence agents. Alpha Legion put a lot of effort into recruiting spies and saboteurs in other factions, they rarely operate in the open unless their cover was blown or the final stage of their plan is being implemented which is usually kill all witnesses. Alpha Legion companies operate very independently in a cell-like structure and will often be following a plan developed years ago without any oversight from commanders, that way if the officer in charge of an operation is assassinated the operation will proceed anyway. When Alpharius was slain by Guilliman the Alpha Legionnaires kept on fighting as if nothing had changed. Not to say the least of Omegon, Alpharius's twin, the fact that their homeworld was never discovered and the fact that they have been declared exterminated seven times, nor suffered a lasting defeat. In essence if they were portrayed properly in Do W, the Blood Ravens would experience a mass of cultist attacks on random non-essential targets and return to base only to be nuked by a warhead buried under their stronghold while simultaneously their ships in orbit are declared traitors and attacked by the Imperial Navy. That's how the Alpha Legion operate, behind your back.
- Given how much of a devious little prick Sindri is, it's entirely possible that he maneuvered Bale into the position he was in in order to have someone in authority he could easily manipulate, fully knowing the guy was completely incompetent.
- OP here. My biggest problem was in Soulstorm though, I mean come on, they weren't trying to seem in any way smart. They weren't the Alpha Legion, the devs just picked traitor legions out of a hat with the preconceived notion of them being Khornate. I think they would have done the same thing if they got Thousand Sons.
- Hey, it is entirely possible that Chaos simply was able to corrupt this particular company of the Alpha Legion until they said "screw this" to guerrilla warfare and took up Khorne worship. It is also possible that they acted the way they did because they were on a very tight schedule to seize the artifact before the Warp Storms made it inaccessible. They could have only discovered its location recently, and simply didn't have time to do their usual thing. Also, they took as many Khornate troops as possible, because they expected a lot of close-quarters fighting, and Khornates excel at that. Also, Bale was like that because Sindri needed a nominal "leader" to take the heat and fend off challenges while he worked on getting the maledictum.
- People... ten thousand years down the line, these legions are not the same anymore. Chaos corrupts, every warband of every legion has developed its own Chaos allegiance, hierarchy, organization and so forth. There's a fucking Khornate warband who are all proficient daemon summoners for Allah's sake. You can't pigeonhold them into; 'covert, black ops geniuses' anymore. The Alpha Legion, along with everything aside from the Word Bearers and Black Legion, are fragmented wrecks. Oh, you'll find many warbands that are 'traditional Alpha Legion', but you'll find others that just bear the colors and geneseed. Also, if its worth anything, the Alpha Legion in Retribution infiltrated the Imperial Guard sent to pacify Aurelia and converted them to Chaos worship. That fits with the what everyone seems to think of when the AL comes into play. Also, Bale's choice of weapon suggests he worships Nurgle.
- Except the Alpha Legion never turned to Chaos, they just went traitor. They have been fighting the exact same way, with the exact same weapons, armor, vehicles and ships since the end of the Heresy.
- On the other hand, the Word Bearers in the Dark Crusade play exactly as they're supposed to. The game's habit of saving each map exactly as you left it, down to the last Listening Post, means you have every incentive to conduct a slow, crushing campaign that leaves Kronus totally subservient. You know, just like in the fluff.
- If the Alpha Legion went and acted subtle, people'd immediately be suspicious. The Alpha Legion acting so out of character means it's not actually them but a ifferent chapter masquerading as the Alpha Legion.
- But the best Legion for this kin of infiltration is the Alpha Legion. Therefore, it's the Alpha Legion masquerading as a different Legion masquerading as the Alpha Legion. (And if you think it's complicated, just remember it's all part of Tzeentch's plan.)
- To be fair, Sindri does a lot of manipulation and deception. Sure, he doesn't lead the Blood Ravens in circles until it's too late but if he did there wouldn't be a game.
- It Just Bugs Me that people think the Blood Ravens are somehow nicer than other chapters they are just as mean spirited and wasteful of imperial guard lives.
- They're slightly sympathetic because they're dying out. They're still evil bastards but they're sympathetic evil bastards.
- They're sympathetic because they may or may not be Thousand Son successors, they're evil because they may or may not be Thousand Son successors.
- The Blood Ravens were actually so impressed by the loyalist Imperial Guard on Tartarus that they recruited some of the survivors. Also note that Avitus is the only important (aka, on-screen) Blood Raven to diss on them without good reason, and others even call him on it. The Blood Ravens seem more openly concerned with the lives of people caught in the crossfire and more willing to be respectful of non-Astartes who genuinely deserve it; even if it's because their future is in doubt and they need all the friends they can get, it's still a positive trait.
- Wait when did they mention that in the games? Or was that from the awful awful book.
- Also, apparently Avitus' seething hatred of the IG stems from some of them fleeing some battle(s) in the past and leaving the Marines on their own, which presumably got some of Avitus' brothers killed off. So it's not like he's bigoted out of nowhere. The whole Kronus episode probably didn't help, either.
- Actually Avitus lost his friends while fighting against the Guard during Dark Crusade. Plus he grew up in a settlement that was abused by a corrupt regiment.
Eldar in 2
- The Eldar's actions in Do W 2 just make bollocks sense to me. I mean, OK, I get the "not caring if entire worlds live or die if it saves a single Eldar" bit. I do. I also get the plan to "lure" the Tyranids down on the planets, then blow them up all at once. Makes some sense. However :
- a) why fuck around with the Orks in any way, shape or form ? It's not like they were expecting them to win, since the only reason Eldar got involved at all was that they figured the Hive Fleet was unstoppable. But even if they hoped the Orks could win, why try and sic 'em on the Space Marines, which would bleed both sides out ? Surely letting both full strength Orks and Imperium concentrate on blasting 'nids instead of each other would have worked better. Which leads to
- b) Why not let the Imperium duke it out with the Tyranids and instead actively fight the IG and the Blood Ravens ? Especially when the master stroke is to blow the planets up when nobody's looking. And the big one,
- c) the whole idea is to get involved as discreetly and minorly as possible in order to save many Eldar lives down the line. In order to fulfill this plan, you throw countless Eldar mooks at pretty much every sentient species in the sector. Untold numbers of them die in the fighting. Yeah, that makes sense. Better get killed than die, amiright ?..
- Fairly simple on B, at least. The Ravens have been caught up in Eldar struggles for some time now, and Gabriel is actually on his way after the 'nids arrive. Even if they didn't predict that, it would make perfect sense for the Eldar to lure as many Marines as they could into a deathtrap. Saves them the bother later.
- It is possible that the things went Exactly As Planned for the Eldar, since the Tyranid Fleet wound up being stopped and the threat to their craftowrld's eliminated. After all, without the Eldar stirring up the Orks and getting the attention of the Blood Ravens, the Tyranid Invasion would have caught them completely unprepared.
- More will be revealed when we finally get to play the eldar campaign.
- There's some of the Eldars' hidden motive blurred into one of the Do WII: Chaos Rising missions. Something about the ruins of a Craftworld crashing on Typhon Primaris. Perhaps the Eldar took advantage of all the craziness in the subsector to achieve their real goal. (After all, when Idranel mentioned saving a Craftworld, she never said anything about it being an intact Craftworld...)
- Well although it is not confirmed, it is highly speculated that the Ulthwe Eldar were trying to destroy Meridian in the Vanilla campaign becauseMeridian is a dormant Necron Tomb World, and the fact they failed means Meridian is so screwed one way or another...
- Why don't the Tau get turrets? They're the only race without a We Have Reserves approach, they use drones to reduce the number of Tau casualties, if anything, they should be the only ones with automated defenses.
- It's also a bit unusual that despite being such a technologically advanced/range-focused faction, their Relic Unit in the first game is a giant T-Rex that's technically mercenary firepower.
- Tau aren't much of a believer in static defenses, preferring to use mobility and distance to get the drop on their enemies. It's a nod to the fluff.
- For god's sake, Tau already have FW spam and Broadsides.. shooting across half the map.. and the burrowing gun drones.. I'd say they're fine. Not to mention the goddamn snare traps.
- But it especially annoys me in the campaign, where you need to sacrifice part of your army to maintain a viable defense. Also no turrets means no detection.
- While there is an undeniable need for gameplay balance, the Tau actually do have turrets in fluff. In fact, Forge World makes models for them and there are rules for using them on the tabletop. They are typically rapidly deployed from arial transports ahead of an enemy advance and operated by drone intelligences, and if they survive the battle, can be recovered and repositioned afterward. Seems like a perfect fit for RTS use, but no...
- Those turrets are part of the Imperial Armour series which has a lot of units that are very questionable and generally not acknowledged too often.
- Even in the rules, they are not considered to be turrets.
- It still breaks Tau military doctrine to a large extent. A mobile turret (which they have in several forms) is better than an immobile turret.
- The main gripe of the "lack of turret" has more to do with the infantry cap. If Broadside battlesuits could be deployed in unlimited amounts to function as turrets, no one would be complaining.
Blue Blood angels
- Why are the Blood Angels colored blue?
- ...what Blood Angels?
- The version of Dark Crusade I have has blue Blood Angels as one of the Space Marine armies. It might be a bug though.
- Probably. Wiki has them red.
- You got bug. I have them red. It might have mixed them accidentally with Ultramarines.
- While most of the Marines in a given Chapter maintain the Chapter's colours, there are some variants: Chaplains are almost always in black, while Librarians tend to wear blue and Techmarines wear red. However, they maintain their Chapter's colours and insignia somewhere on their armour, usually one shoulder pad at least.
- Some of the choices of Heroes in multiplayer are questionable at best. Each army really has there own stupid mistake actually.
- Space Marines: Apothecaries would definately not be in a major leadership role and a better choice would probably be Librarians who can definately fill a suport role.
- Apothecaries make more sense than Librarians. Very few chapters trust their own Librarians completely and would never really put them in a position of leadership without being completely devoid of any other option. Apothecaries are widely revered throughout their chapters and just as well trained in combat as other Space Marines. The only thing unusual about an Apothecary being in a leadership role is that their role is generally held in higher regard than most leaders.
- Eldar: The Warp Spider Exarch leading an entire army doesn't make sense. The better choice should be obvious; an Autrarch who could move around just as fast.
- Note though that as of Retribution, the Autrarch is now a playable hero for the Eldar.
- Actually, it does. The rank of Autarch is only bestowed temporarily under specific circumstances. When they don't have that title, Autarchs have a different one. Exarch.
- Orks: Actually works for me.
- Tyranids: A Ravener obviously isn't leading the hive fleets troops but a Zoanthrope would probably make a better choice.
- Chaos: It actually works for me.
- Imperial Guard: Best chosen out of the armies.
- ...you do realise this is why they're called heroes and not leaders, right?
- But they still are understood to be the leader.
- By you, yes. By the game, no. They're hero units. You are complaining about an interpretation you've forced onto the game, not a genuine mislabelling.
- Yes but invariably the other two choices are HQ choices in the Tabletop so its not too hard to just pick an adequate replacement that is also an HQ choice.
- It's not too difficult to take things at face value rather than being finicky, pedantic and over-anal but there you go. The hero choices in the game were picked because they were iconic and easily identifiable, not to appease people such as yourself who are apparently incapable of realising this.
- In Chaos Rising, they brought back a lot of original voice actors, including the fan-favored Eliphas. And then, instead of letting him reprise his role as Eliphas, they make him the Chaos Lord. Who gets offed. By Eliphas.
- It's especially grating in Retribution, Steve Blum voices damn near every fucking character going. Including Eliphas. Whose original VA is in the game. Everyone sounds the goddamn same when he's behind them, and it is immensely annoying.
- ... Steve Blum only voices 3 characters... Martellus, Cyrus and Eliphas. If there's anyone voicing EVERYONE it's Brian Dobson doing the entire Space Marine faction and Paul Dobson doing the entire Chaos Space Marine faction. In fact, that's probably why Paul wasn't called to do Eliphas.
Cyrus and Tyranids
- Why is Cyrus the only space marine in the entire sector who knows about the Tyranids? It seems like they'd be kind of big news all across the imperium. Making matters worse, the chapter archives have incredibly detailed records on them. Does no one bother to actually read them once in a while?
- The Tyranids are not well known outside of forces that fought them and any records could easily have been Ultramarine records on loan.
- Er, why aren't they well known? They don't seem to get classified, and they're pretty widespread. Also, the Shadow in the Warp was in effect, so it's highly unlikely they obtained any new records. The records may be from Ultramarines originally, but they're clearly in the chapter archives and not obtained from elsewhere after they figured out what they were up against.
- I had forgotten the shadow in the warp part.
- Plus Cyrus was in the Deathwatch and thus has far more detailed information regarding any xenos.
- We don't know exactly when Dawn of War takes place in the 40K timeline. It could be near the beginning of the tyranid invasion as they first breached into the galaxy.
- Fits with the fluff. Space Marines, and pretty much anyone outside Ordos Xenos, are highly discouraged from learning about any alien species, even when its relevant. Most Space Marines won't even both distinguishing between Eldar and Dark Eldar even though they employ different enough weaponry and tactics that it should be worthwhile.
First Mission location
- Where is the first mission in DOW Retribution set? It can't be Cyrene, as Angelos didn't get his daemonhammer until he was on Tartarus, but it can't be Tartarus, as Jonah wasn't there (you also cannot build librarians in the last level of the game, where you fight the daemon), it was Toth.
- It's pretty obviously on Typhon, for all races. And the final mission is always on Cyrene. But seriously your continuity is all over the place. Retribution takes place after Chaos Rising and waaaay after Dawn of War I.
- Two things: one, I meant the prologue mission and two, I was narrowing down the possibilities based on the three games in the series I've actually played: DOW 1, Winter Assault and Dark Crucade.
- The prologue mission is the ending mission from Gabriels perspective, and yes, it's on Cyrene. Planet's just lifeless by the time the game takes place.
- Relic seems to have written Slaanesh out of Retribution. I can see how it would be messy from a gameplay standpoint to have all four gods represented in gameplay, but come on - featuring the Noise Marines and then giving them to another god (Tzeentch, IIRC) just bugs me.
- When they attack somebody with sonic blasters, their victims get the distinctfully Slaanesh logo over their heads, and are kind of mesmerised, which meets the description of Slaaneshi powers quite nice. And also, THEY INVOKE SLAANESH WHEN YOU SEND THEM INTO BATLLE.
- Slaanesh wouldn't be that messy from a gameplay standpoint. From a game rating standpoint, however... ;). FWIW, that's also why Tzeentch is the only Chaos god Chaos characters can be from in the Warhammer Online MMORPG: Khorne would have meant a dearth of magic in that particular faction, Nurgle would have been too disgusting for most players leading to population imbalances, and Slaanesh... well, Slaanesh would have implied more tits everywhere. Weaponized tits, eye tits, tits tits. So Tzeentch it is.
- The Sorcerer says "Their Souls to Slaanesh!" when attacking Eldar, and there are several Slaaneshi items in Retribution. There would probably be more Slaanesh focus if they had room to add a Slaaneshi Hero.
- What is the point of Araghast in Chaos Rising? He adds nothing to the story, and apparently has no purpose in life other than spamming the Blood Ravens with lame insults. First he yells his name over their vox channel, just to prove that he can. Then he remains quiet for some time, until he decides that he is not getting enough attention, at which point he challenges the Blood Ravens to some sort of schoolyard fight, which he loses spectacularly. The Black Legion suffers no setback from this, and the Blood Ravens gain nothing from killing him, except from no longer having to listen to his yelling. The campaign would have worked perfectly well without him.
- This troper always figured it was a reference to the original Do W campaign, with Eliphas, much like Sindri needing some idiot lord running around making loud noises while he focused on the 'real' objective, in this case bringing back Ulkair. Not that it helps Araghast's case much.
- Oh! Oh! Can I answer this? Thanks. Eliphas wasn't supposed to be in Chaos Rising originally. He was brought back due to massive fan outcry, after mistaking Araghast in the original trailer to be Eliphas. His was a last minute addition, with the entire Chaos story being rewritten to accommodate him. If outcry hadn't risen, Araghast would have been the main villain as intended. Also, Araghast is awesome, cry more.
- Araghast is awesome but Eliphas is a more established villain with more history fighting the Blood Ravens it makes sense for him to be there.
- Of course, Eliphas is a far more established and very badass villain, but the point is that he wasn't originally planned to be in CR until the fans jumped to conclusions. And yes, Araghast is perhaps the only Chaos Lord who begins to approach Eliphas' badassery.
- In the first game the Tactical Marines carried combat knives they used in melee and fared just as well in it as they did in shoot-out, if not better. In the second game they...kick or punch their foes or hit them with the absent gun-butts of their bolters. The hell?
- This also bugged me for a while, but it is mostly to put a clear distinction between ranged and melee units, in DOW 1 people would just send their whole army into melee combat just to see some knife to knife action, obvious this pretty much wasted the value of ranged units. And so by doing the lame punch and kick animations it forcibly tells people that units with guns should shoot them, not charge them into close combat where they are just going to die, and that the guys with chainswords, should use them on the guys with guns.
- Why are the Alaitoc the Eldar faction in Retribution? What interest do they have in an Ulthwé craftworld?
- It's not an Ulthwe craftworld, Craftworld Ulthwe is the only Ulthwe craftworld. The craftworld is destroyed, so forces from other craftworlds are trying to salvage the Infinity Circuit. Eldar are semi-unified, and they're all for keeping souls from being eaten by Slaanesh. Presumably Ulthwe farseers were the first to get visions relating to this craftworld, and Alaitoc took longer to get enough clarity to decide to intervene.
- Why is the Ravener a hero unit for the Tyranids in Multiplayer? Wouldn't an ambush unit designed to support troops be better suited to a Genestealer?
- Because Genestealers were only added in Chaos Rising. If they were in vanilla, a Genestealer Broodlord would probably replace the Ravener Alpha.
Alpha Legion in Aurelia
- What exactly where the plans of the Alpha Legion in Aurelia it is never mentioned but for some reason the enemy chaos worshipers are from the Alpha Legion I know it was probably just that the Alpha Legions color scheme lent itself best to the incidental chaos worshipers but it would have been interesting if they explained their existence.
- Remember the Alpha Legion you fought in the first Dawn of War? They've decided to come back and help out the daemon that Sindri released.
- Why though, what do they have to gain from a daemon who has already served its purpose?
- 'Purpose'? What 'purpose'? Anyway, the reason why the Alpha Legion assists said Daemon is because this particular warband wants to see the Blood Ravens destroyed. Also, daemons tend to be revered by the servitors of Chaos, hence why it is an honour amongst them to be possessed by one. So, there you go.
- But the Alpha Legion doesn't follow chaos, they seek the downfall of the Imperium but they don't use daemons or help them unless it benefits them everything they do is for a very strict purpose and wasting precious marines on a matter where they probably wouldn't even operate in the open for. If they had been acting like they normally would you would have never seen anyone displaying their color scheme unless the operation went tits up. They also are in places where they are not helping the maledictum daemon at all like with those traitor guardsmen and marines on Aurelia where they where setting up a warp portal because they wanted to one up Araghast and re-summon Ulkair respectively.
- The only remaining unification among the Traitor legions is that they share a heraldry. 10,000 years of Chaos corruption, there are some warbands who have deviated from the norm. The legion you face in Retribution is one of those. Also, there's nothing really saying that they wanted to 'one up' Araghast by opening a portal. Araghast's agenda was simply to destroy the subsector. Also, that portal helped to summon Bloodletters. Footsoldiers of Khorne. Perhaps the daemon wished an army? I mean, Space Marine legions aren't Planets of Hats where every member and group are clones. I mean, Kharn used to be a calming influence and there's an obese Space Wolf.
- Why can't you bring the whole team in for the last mission of Chaos Rising? It seems to me that they'd want all available hands on to try to kill that thing that's been trying to kill off your recruiting worlds, yes? Especially matters as Captain Angelos has been rallying all loyalist Blood Ravens.
- Possibly because of gameplay reasons, as you can lose quite a few of your squads to corruption. It would be a lot of work to account for all the possible permutations. As for an in-story reason... well, no idea. Maybe they just ran out of Drop Pods.
- Same for the final mission of DoW2. Sure you get to command them all in the end, but why are two squads staying on the strike cruiser when that's as much a suicide mission as deploying?
- Any in-game reasons why a fully corrupted Commander would still bother fighting Ulkair and all his mininons only to escape into the Warp immediately afterwards? Ok, killing Eliphas makes sense, but shouldn't you technically take his place by Ulkair's side in this case?
- Residual loyalty to the Chapter.
- It is also possible that he dedicated himself to a god other than Nurgle, in which case he would be Ulkair's enemy. The different Chaos factions fight each other as much as they fight everyone else.
- The description of the Force Commander's Chaos abilities imply that he was dedicated to Khorne (ie: Call for Blood) . Cyrus, on the other hand dedicated himself to Tzeentch. His ultimate ability causing a Tzeentchian mark to form underneath him. Avitus was dedicated to Khorne, obviously, but he was apparently the traitor so it doesn't count. Tarkus was Nurgle, and Thaddeus was undivided. On the other hand, Chaos Champions also gain great esteem in the eyes of the Gods when they overcome their own Patron's daemons as well as those of others.
Thaddeus top ability
- Speaking of which. The top ability of Chaos!Thaddeus is called "Daemoni? possession", and it basically sacrifices a squad member to summon a daemon. Uhm, shouldn't possession turn you into, well, a possessed marine? After all, those were present in [DoW] and went by just fine.
- There is more than one type of daemonic possession.
- It probably relates to the whole tabletop game in general, but why are there so few weapons for Terminators? Bolters, assault cannons (which, IMO, suck), flamers, Cyclon launchers and...that's it? No normal missile launchers (i.e. such that can hit a broad side of a Carnifex), no plasma, melta or laser guns? Why?
- Giving them all of those weapons would make most other infantry units redundant and let the terminators counter everything else, thus unbalancing the game. The in-universe reason is probably that they don't need more weapons, as they are already fully capable of handling most of the enemies they face.
- Firstly, there's likely not to be an STC or schematic for doing so, and modifying tech is strictly forbidden. Secondly, Terminators are supposed to be ranged combatants, but also act as a close-range meatshield and have some melee capacity, hence the powerfists, meaning that weaponry with a large blast area (plasma cannon) or pinpoint weapons (lascannon, launcher) would defeat the purpose of them. Also, Codex Astartes.
- Because Terminators are principally anti-infantry units in relatively close range. Terminator armor isn't much better than standard power armor going against vehicle grade weaponry and they are a larger target. Terminator armor is also so rare that it can't be squandered in situations where it isn't very useful.
- Going back to the original table top fluff, Terminator armor was originally designed for use in boarding actions (and other similarly enclosed spaces). As such most of the weapons available to it are designed for fighting waves of infantry in an enclosed space. The Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter and Heavy Flamer are all geared towards this, maximizing rate of fire and anti-infantry damage at the cost of range and anti-vehicle capability, the power fist or chain fist for a secondary weapon is there primarily to allow the Terminator to knock his way through a sealed door or a wall if required (Sargeants get Power Swords which are less useful but are mostly a symbol of rank). Similarly the default melee option (Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield) is designed to maximize protection to fire from in front of a Terminator while he advances down a corridor to take out a strong point. The only Terminator weapons that don't really fit with this are the Cyclone Missile Launcher and Lightning Claws, I'm not aware of any fluff regarding these but my assumption is that they were later add-ons designed to give Terminators a bit more flexibility when they started getting deployed in open terrain. TL;DR version: Terminators are specialists and their weapon options reflect this.
- So, uh, why didn't Adrastia just give Bluddflag the hat? It is of little cost to her to do so, and she surely didn't need another enemy in the sector and the Orks would have proven more useful were they totally on her payroll.
- I guess she thinks it's a Nice Hat too.
- He's a Xeno. Humans don't deal with Xenos when it's possible. She most likely thought she could order him to do what she liked for nothing since her species evolved on Earth.
- Inquisitors are usually extremely prideful/self confident/medically insane etc. Considering Adrastia was just using "da gud Kaptin" as expendable cannon fodder in her bid to save the sector, she probably felt that Bluddflag didn't deserve any reward.
- Well, that's no entirely true, she did offer him a fight afterwards.
Heavy Weapon Crew lascannons
- In Dark Crusade the Lascannons that the Heavy Weapon crews in the Imperial Guard use fire like crazy. Every other lascannon, like those on tanks or dreadnaughts fire veeeery slowly, so do man-carried lazcannons you use in Dawn of War 2. So what's up with the IG cannons?
- Probably because it's a big, set-up emplacement, which means it can afford to have a bulkier battery that won't fit in a tank, dreadnought, or be impossible to carry on foot.
- What do people have against Dawn of War II Eliphas? I personally think he's awesome in Retribution...
- It is mainly because he has a new voice artist, and while the new voice is good in its own right, people miss the original (which was awesome). In addition, he is afraid of Abaddon, who is generally disrespected. Let's just say there's a reason he is known as Failbaddon. People just feel Eliphas doesn't live up to his old self.
- But that still doesn't mean he's that bad exactly... He still has some pretty good writing in Retribution, he's the only character in the game to get under Kyras' skin and earn his respect. He's the single most powerful melee hero, just like in Dark Crusade, and he has terminator armour. He's still pretty awesome, he doesn't deserve that whole 'complete failure' and 'weakling' stuff. Granted it's diminished by this point, but still, two failures where you nearly succeeded once does not qualify you for Abaddonian levels of incompetence.
- Additionally, fan reception of Dawn of War II Eliphas also confuses me. I know it's hard to truly gauge the views of an entity as anarchic as /tg/, but as I leaf through 1d4chan, I find edits in pages made during the outset of Retribution's release that are actually praising Eliphas again. What's going on?
- This is the internet, where exaggeration is the norm. "Complete failure" and "weakling" means people are slightly disappointed. As for the praise, people have different opinions. Some will praise what others hate.
- First, Eliphaas in Chaos Rising killed off a much more beloved character, Araghast, and seemed like a grovelling servant rather than the badass from Dark Crusade. By Retribution, the majority of these issues were alleviated.
- Eliphas was recovering from the Basilica of Torment, and as much as the fandom loves to mock ol' Failbaddon, he's still the head of the most powerful Legion. And is thoroughly capable of killing Eliphas at any time. If it helps, Eliphas is cunning enough to act scared.
Castor's Leman Russ
- How does Castor summon Valkyrie Leman Russ drops inside a Space Hulk?
- For some reason, they forgot to disable that kind of abilities on those levels. Which is odd, seeing as they remembered in Chaos Rising.
- Game Play And Story Segregation. Castor's powers revolve around the ability to airdrop more men and tanks, disabling them would have made him pretty useless in those missions.
Abaddon and the Blood Ravens
- So can anybody come up with a reason why Abbadon wants to kill the Blood Ravens, most of the stuff we have heard about them doesn't list them as doing anything related to the Black Legion. I know that at first that was just something that Relic came up with because they needed to think of something for Eliphas to gain favor from for beating each faction.
- It's revealed in Retribution that Eliphas made a deal to give Abaddon the Blood Ravens for sacrifice. Either two options can be made as to why: Either he always had a deal to give them over (perhaps for Daemonhood) and Abaddon wanted Eliphas to pay up, or he was planning to give it to the Warmaster afterwards, but didn't because the Blood Ravens screwed him over.
- There's also a few suggestions that the Blood Ravens have some kind of connection with the Traitor Legions, such as Eliphas calling them "brothers" and taunting them about not knowing their history and Thule covering up relics found on Kronus. Guesses include being formed from loyalist members of the Legions after the Horus Heresy or being made with Traitor Legion geneseed but whatever the connection it could explain why Abbadon has such a hate on for this particular chapter.
Traveling through the Warp
- How does the Blood Raven Battle Barge travel through subsector Aurelia via the Warp when there's a friggin Tyranid Hive Fleet infesting it?
- ... The Tyranid Hive Fleet was not infesting the Warp.
- I think he means the "Shadow in the Warp" effect, rather than the Hive Fleet infesting the Warp. Anyway, that effect only complicates warp travel, not stops it entirely, which is why the Litany of Fury eventually manages to arrive with reinforcements.
- It's mentioned later (In Chaos Rising I believe) that all psykers including librarians and astropaths were fighting off the hive mind to get them through the Shadow in the Warp. Jonah Orion is the only one that survived the ordeal and it left him severely weakened so he could not join the final battle at the end of vanilla Do W II.
- It bothers me that I was able to promote Davian Thule to a Venerable Dreadnought right after he came back.
- In Retribution, shouldn't the feral Tyranids have starved to death? They don't have digestive systems.
- Some of them don't have digestive systems, the little ones. Pretty much genestealers and larger are created to operate for long periods of time so are actual complete lifeforms. Also there are clearly still semi dormant spawning pools for the synapse creatures to use to spawn forces.
- So in the last few missions of the original Dawn of War, why don't inquisitor Toth and/or the Blood Ravens simply call for an exterminatus? The vast majority of the savable population has been evacuated by this point, the remaining population is turning traitor, the world is going to become strategically useless due to a warp storm in a few days anyway, and the Imperium has uncontested control of the space around the planet, with a fleet massive enough to evacuate an entire planet in one go.
- The fleet might not be equipped to deliver Exterminatus. Only Space Marine ships can do that, and the evac fleet is probably Imperial Navy.
- The battlebarge of the Blood Ravens is also near the planet.
- One battle barge, which is enough for a localized bombardment. The Exterminatus on Typhon requires at least two dozen ships.
- There's also the fact that gathering the proper fleet to even pull this off would take far longer than they had. Typhon had at least some advance notice and evidence in getting the Exterminatus cleared, and could only be called off by very extreme circumstances.
- They still need to track down Sindri and the Maledictum. If they withdraw and declare Exterminatus, he might escape.
Martellus as traitor
- If Martellus is the traitor, why is he helping you uncover who the traitor is?
- Well, outright refusal would be an instant red flag. I'm guessing that he doesn't really need the stuff you've been collecting to decode the transmission, but is just using them as an excuse to buy time to make his getaway.
- In Soulstorm, you have to capture the various ancient webway gates to get from one planet in the Kaurava system to another because the warp storm is blocking travel through the Warp. Except that all four planets are all in the same star system. Couldn't you just fly from one planet to another at subluminal speeds in realspace?
- Certainly, by which point the armies on the original planet, the destination planet, and the transport ships, would all be long dead. Realspace FTL is still as impossible 40 millenia from now as it is today, otherwise the Tyranids would have already won.
- Yes, but you don't need light speed to transit between planets orbiting the same star. In other works it's established that in system space travel is at most a matter of weeks, not lifetimes.
- Or they have anti-orbit defenses too good to allow landing.
- That doesn't quite work as you don't actually have to reach FTL speeds to travel across a system in days. Plus the Necrons do have realspace FTL and the Tau sort of do. However the issue is the warp storm is not just affecting the warp. The biggest problem with warp storms is that they bombard realspace with warp energy. Hence why there's a huge purple vortex over Kaurava 4. Therefore space travel, while not impossible, would be insanely dangerous.
Killing Daemon Princes
- If Sindri (SINDRIIIII!!!) and Kharas(sp?) turn into Daemon Princes by the time you fight them, does this mean that you cannot actually kill them, and they might get back?
- Although the way the Meldictum Daemon spoke of Sindri implied that his soul was consumed in the sacrifice. And in Kyras' case his "ascention is not yet complete" by the time you decapitate him, so may be regular-dead rather than daemon-dead. Inconclusive in either case.
- Yeah, becoming a Daemon takes longer than either had. Sure they physically went big and scary but so do Chaos Spawn. They're only half the way there so probably dead for good.
- Why is Eliphas called the Inheritor? What did he inherit?
- The planet maybe? The cultists sacrificed themselves to summon him, now the job of converting it to Chaos is his.
- He used some of Lorgar's old equipment in DC. Or at least some things that were claimed to have belonged to Lorgar.
- He has not inherited yet, he believes he will inherit all the power feels he deserves.
- Stated the same on a couple of wikis: "Eliphas and the Word Bearers were summoned to Kronus by a Chaos cult at the Third Temple of Black Succession in the far south of the Deimos Peninsula. This cabal had turned to Chaos in light of their experiences with the recent rise of the Necrons on Kronus, and Eliphas had answered. Using the knowledge gained from The Book of the Epistles of Lorgar, their leader Virgilius planned to bring Eliphas to Kronus. On the eighth night of their visit to the Temple, Virgilius led them to the great chamber at the temple's heart, where he and eight of his cultists were sacrificed on an icon of Chaos. The Warp opened between the points of the eight-pointed star and Eliphas stepped forth, heralding the beginning of the Ninth Inheritance."
- Why do Guardsmen squads have such vastly inferior morale to every other squad in the game? I get why guardsmen have inferior morale to, say, Space Marines, but why do cultist squads have a morale of 300, the same as Space Marines, even though cultists, like guardsmen, are just regular humans? After all, the justification for the fact that guardsmen have a morale of only 100 is that they are just regular people fighting all kinds of horrible monsters. For that matter, why do Tau Fire Warrior squads, who are presumably just regular Tau, have a morale of 300 also? Likewise with Eldar guardian squads, and so forth. It can't be that humans are just innately less brave than other species, because, again, cultist squads are also just regular humans.
- The cultists may be (mostly) ordinary humans like the Guardsmen, but they're also pretty much all insane religious fanatics. Tau Fire Warriors have to undergo extensive training and have the Greater Good obsession going for them. By contrast, the average Guardsman requires extensive indoctrination/propaganda (available as an in-game upgrade, which does greatly boost their morale) and/or a Commissar (a separate unit that, when attached to a squad, greatly boosts morale/makes them immune to morale damage altogether depending on expansion) looking over their shoulder to get that kind of morale, since they're generally aren't that well trained and mostly aren't religious fanatics.
- So what you're suggesting is that the typical Tau is more devoted to the Greater Good, and the average cultist is more devoted to the Chaos gods, than the average guardsman is to the Emperor? I guess that may be true, but it's heresy.
- Not really. Guardsmen are taught that, while expendable, throwing away your life for no good reason is itself heresy, as it deprives the Emperor of a faithful servant (the IG generals who use their men as cannon fodder/minsweepers/stairs do so for justifiable reasons, and don't last long if this strategy fails), so they still very much fear death. Also, there is no such thing as regular Tau: selective breeding programs and rigid caste system ensure the only Fire Warriors are of the warlike Fire caste, and the Tau are implied to brainwash / mind control their troops just in case. A major aspect of Chaos is that your own death can still serve Chaos (Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, so long as it flows, etc.), so they won't care about dying as much (people have been known to die and return as Daemon Princes(ses)).
- For comparison a Tau of the Water, Air or Earth Castes stuck in the middle of a battle would be lucky to have half of a guardman's morale. They're just as dedicated to the Greater Good but they are neither bred nor trained for fighting.
Eliphas as Chaos Lord
- How is it that Eliphas is capable to rising to become a Chaos Lord after having tortured for several thousand years in the Warp? You become a champion of Chaos by amassing mutations and receiving a Mark of Chaos - by pleasing your patron god(s) with bloody deeds of heroic daring. He's not done any of that, as far as I can tell...
- Eliphas is well over 10,000 years old, and he's probably gotten a lot of work done outside of the Basilica of Torments. Otherwise, he wouldn't exactly be leading a host of chaos marines. Either that or he killed the old boss.
- Plus there is no one path to power in the worship of Chaos. Chaos is, well, chaotic. Sure most Chaos Lords got there via hard work but more than a few received the blessing of a God or daemon totally out of the blue, as much to their own surprise as anyone elses. The Chaos Gods plans are multi-layered and incomprehensible. Also they get bored sometimes.
- Eliphas is a Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers, giving him enough influence to make him a Chaos Lord.
Anti-daemon weapon misused
- In the final level of Chaos Rising Captain Angelos sends your strikeforce to take out Ulkair while the Third Company distracts the Black Legion. Good in theory if not in gameplay, but that's not what I take issue with. What I take issue with is that he has the best anti-daemon weapon in the entire chapter, so why is he using it to assault the Black Legion base rather than the Great Unclean One? And don't say it's because The Main Characters Do Everything, because he was there (and got the credit!) at the end of DoW2, any veteran could lead the base assault, and he could loan Godsplitter if he absolutely has to be elsewhere.
- Faith in your abilities if you're loyal (you did fight off a Tyranid invasion whilst repelling Ork and Eldar raids at the same time with only 5 squads and a Dreadnought, and have had a very good success rate against the current Chaos incursion), The Uriah Gambit if you're not? Admittedly, that doesn't explain why he doesn't directly help you out if you're loyal. I can think of a couple out-of-universe reasons, but not an in-universe one.
Macha versus Blood Ravens
- Why did Macha attack the Blood Ravens instead of the Alpha Legion in the first game if their entire goal was to stop the Chaos Marines from releasing the daemon? And why couldn't she just TELL Angelos that the key unlocks the Maledictum and inside it is a greater daemon instead of being cryptic and telling him to go ask the inquisitor? Hell, she was right in front of him when he tried to destroy the stone and instead of telling him "Hey, there's a greater daemon in there! Don't release it!" instead she just yelled about some vague doom and ordered her troops to fire upon him. Does a greater daemon being released not warrant speaking clearly for once?
- Hubris, mutual distrust, and an alien mindset. Hubris is the Eldar's fatal flaw and will taint everything they do. They and the humans also distrust one another; if Macha had yelled "It's a daemon's prison!" then Gabriel might have concluded she's lying because no Eldar speaks plainly, or that with Godsplitter he could slay the daemon inside anyway. And as both an Eldar and a Farseer, Macha just thinks differently and may dismiss the "common sense" approach. Indeed, she could have peered into the future and realized that there was no possible way speaking plainly would work, that the only path with even a chance of success was to cut down Gabriel after beating Sindri. Too bad she wasted time trying to sway Gabriel with a warning anyway instead of just opening fire right away...
Sindri and Khorne
- Sindri's ultimate goal in the first game is to become a Daemon Prince of Khorne by instigating massive bloodshed and draining the power of the Maledictum. All well and good, except for one critical thing: Sindri is a sorcerer, and Khorne hates sorcerers. Hate, hate, hates them, won't have anything to do with them, will not tolerate a single one in his army or will allow one to have his favor. So how did Sindri not only manage to surmount Khorne's hatred of sorcerers, but also become so favored that he manages to become a Daemon Prince?
- Judging from the words of the Maledictum Daemon, Sindri was just the last in the long list of sacrifices required for his liberation. So in truth Sindri never gained Khorne's favor - he was just used as a pawn.
- Hang on. The Eldar's plan was to stall the Tyranid invasion on a few planets on the Eastern Fringe, because the swarm's next target would be Craftworld Ulthwé itself...which is orbiting the Eye of Terror on the other side of the galaxy. A possible Author's Saving Throw in Chaos Rising: When you go down to kill the Avatar, the Eldar make mention that there is a "ruined Craftworld" buried on Typhon that was uncovered by the Tyranid invasion.
- It should be noted that the Eldar usually take the long view on events. So it's likely that they were thinking about a few centuries down the road. That's right, the Eldar planned on screwing over an entire sector because the Tyranids were going to attack one of their Craftworlds in a century or so. The Eldars are dicks like that.
- It is possible the Eldar lied about protecting their Craftworld; as Tarkus notes, the Eldar lie whenever it suits their agenda. In this case, the "invasion of Ulthwé" was a lie to coverup the relics on Typhon, by convincing the Space Marines that they had thwarted the Eldar. This is doubly true when you realize that the Eldar probably know parts of the Blood Raven chapter are actually traitors; they would probably treat Spirit Stones as Scooby Snacks for demons.
- Chaos Rising does address this, somewhat. The Tyranid attack on Typhon Primaris uncovered Eldar ruins buried beneath the surface. The Eldar wanted to protect something long hidden there, and if that something was a webway gate that they were unable to seal, that could spell disaster should the Tyranids get through it.
- Retribution finally gives a straight answer. There was indeed a ruined Craftworld underneath Typhon. The Eldar are trying to access the ruins and retrieve buried Soulstones before they're eaten by Tyranids, Chaos finds them first, or the Inquisition decides to blow the planet. They fail due to your actions in all the campaigns.
- Also, Taldeer's original prophecy, which gets this whole ball rolling back in Dark Crusade, was a prophecy about Necrons, not Tyranids, laying waste to Craftworld Ulthwe. The most logical assumption is either Idranel misspoke of the Tyranids causing all the damage, or she misinterpreted the prophecy.
Blood Raven Relics
- Exactly what are the chapter relics from a dozen or more different Space Marine chapters doing, spread around on the recruiting worlds of the Blood Ravens? Logically, the invading Orks, Eldar and Tyranids wouldn't be bringing those with them from where they came from, which meant they picked them up somewhere on the recruiting worlds during the campaign. Makes you wonder if that 'raven' should be a 'magpie', doesn't it?
- The Blood Ravens are certainly not above looting dead marines from other chapters. One fairly early armor you can find in DOW II (I forget the name) was originally from a Grey Knight Justicar who died during the Kronus campaign. The Blood Ravens were said to have taken it to prevent it from falling into the "traitorous Imperial Guard hands".
- I assumed everyone was a scavenger to a degree because of the Used Future.
- Scavenger is one thing, but stealing from Primarchs and Abbadon is another.