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Sep 5th 2018 at 8:06:46 AM •••

I noticed The Scrappy section has been removed. Are the characters that were listed there (iago, hans, garon) no longer hated? I thought ppl considered them to be poorly written villains

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Sep 7th 2018 at 4:53:21 PM •••

I agree, I thought almost everyone hated Iago, Hans, and Garon

Apr 18th 2018 at 2:57:52 PM •••

I disagree vehemently with the removal of the Unintentionally Unsympathetic section regarding Peri. She is regarded as one of the game's worst characters by a wide margin, and that section accurately reflects the sentiments of a great deal of fans.

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Apr 19th 2018 at 8:48:00 AM •••

That's fine if you want it there, but its shoehorning a character YOU don't like and are missing the point. A scrappy is also a big misstep, and you are also going against various discussions of the character that firmly state Peri does not qualify as a scrappy. Using reddit threads as evidence is not a valid source either because you went to an extremely biased place to find evidence, trust me I've been told that isn't a source for debates here so I'm holding the same standard for other debates.

She has her fans and her supporters, hence why she's a Base-Breaking Character. You don't get to decide that with biased evidence backed by your opinion. If you want to take it up and debate it, take it to the scrappy cleanup thread and debate it.

Apr 19th 2018 at 9:05:42 AM •••

Then what does qualify as evidence for her status as scrappy if not the opinions of fans? Yes, the fandom is biased against Peri, that is the DEFINITION of being a scrappy. Having a fandom who is heavily biased against you. Her supporters exist, yes, but they are far, FAR outweighed by her haters to the point where it can not be called an even divide under any circumstances.

Apr 21st 2018 at 2:54:12 AM •••

I added the Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry specifically because I think she has too much support to qualify as a Scrappy but still wanted to explain what the common criticisms of her character are without getting into "vehement fandom" territory. I don't even hate her, I'd even go so far as to say I kind of like her, but I just think she was handled really poorly and wanted to point out where I think they went wrong with her.

Edited by Gravityman
Apr 17th 2018 at 11:36:08 AM •••

I... am a bit confused. One of the Values Dissonance states: “Hoshido's willingness to destroy a very sympathetic kingdom”

But... where exactly did anyone from Hoshido ever state or show a desire to destroy Nohr? IIRC, characters are pretty racist yes, but I don’t recall anyone talking about wanting to ‘destroy’ Nohr, even in Birthright. Is it something exclusive to the Japanese version of the game because I am fairly certain that the only characters that ever talk of destroying countries are Anankos and the Anankos-possessed Garon.

Or is the country being referred to one of the minor countries like Nestra or Kohga in backstory...? Either way I am really confused

Apr 17th 2018 at 11:36:08 AM •••

I... am a bit confused. One of the Values Dissonance states: “Hoshido's willingness to destroy a very sympathetic kingdom”

But... where exactly did anyone from Hoshido ever state or show a desire to destroy Nohr? IIRC, characters are pretty racist yes, but I don’t recall anyone talking about wanting to ‘destroy’ Nohr, even in Birthright. Is it something exclusive to the Japanese version of the game because I am fairly certain that the only characters that ever talk of destroying countries are Anankos and the Anankos-possessed Garon.

Or is the country being referred to one of the minor countries like Nestra or Kohga in backstory...? Either way I am really confused

Jan 18th 2017 at 5:52:44 AM •••

Are people really sure that Peri is a full-on scrappy? She comes off as a Base Breaker at worst.

Jul 3rd 2016 at 8:19:16 AM •••

I still feel like Kana being voiced by a woman in English is an example of They Just Didn't Care. Even if it is common for a woman to voice a male kid, you're missing the point of why it was originally included in the first place. In the Japanese version, Kana was played by a male voice actor (the same guy who did the Male Avatar's voice) and was given a somewhat teen-sounding voice. But apparently, none of the localizers cared about trying to stay true to the Japanese voice. I feel like it's not caring to the point of not trying to stay true to the Japanese voice, unlike why Libra from Awakening has a femine voice in both Japanese and English (due to him resembling a woman, to add to the gender confusion gag).

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Jul 3rd 2016 at 10:53:31 AM •••

For all we know, none of the Avatar's male voice actors could convincingly pull it off and they had to get somebody else (which is honestly very likely since female Kana shares her voice actress with one of the female Avatar voice options).

Besides, we don't need complaining about a standard industry practice.

Edited by Karxrida
Jul 3rd 2016 at 11:08:35 AM •••

But they should've made it like how it was in the Japanese version, where Male Kana was in fact by a male voice actor. In Awakening, they at least made Male Morgan played by a male voice actor (Todd Haberkorn), despite not having any of the same voice actors for Male Avatar. In this case, at least someone knew that Male Morgan had a male voice, and thus cast a male voice actor for him.

The issue here is that if they gave Male Morgan a male voice actor in both the Japanese and English versions of Awakening, then why couldn't the people behind the localization Fates do the same?

Even if it was industry practice, the localizers apparently didn't listen to the Japanese voice for Male Kana (who was voiced by a man in Japanese and a woman in English). The part of where "They Just Didn't Care" is they apparently didn't want to get a male voice actor for Male Kana, despite having had a male voice actor in the Japanese version.

Jul 3rd 2016 at 11:12:17 AM •••

You're seriously complaining about a super minute detail that does not matter or affect the quality of the work.

They Just Didn't Care has to affect the entire scope of the work, and the localizers clearly cared.

Jul 3rd 2016 at 11:29:25 AM •••

But even so, the localizers clearly did not care about Kana's voice, though. That technically does count. I'm sure there are others that feel about his voice the same way I do.

Jul 3rd 2016 at 1:48:58 PM •••

The reason to the standard practice in question is to the voice of the character sound as a kid voice.

Jul 3rd 2016 at 2:54:16 PM •••

But if he was voiced by a male voice actor in the Japanese version, wouldn't you want to do the same thing for the English version as well?

Edited by TheNohrianDarkKnight
Jul 3rd 2016 at 3:06:42 PM •••

Getting a good adult male actor that can convincingly pull of a preteen voice is hard, while getting a good child actor is also hard. Getting a female actress that can pull it off is way easier by comparison.

I seriously think you're being way too purist about this. It doesn't matter in the slightest if they got a male or female actor at the end of the day, because male Kana still sounds like a young boy and it doesn't even affect the quality of the work.

Edited by Karxrida
Jul 3rd 2016 at 3:54:16 PM •••

But in Japanese, Male Kana at least had a somewhat teen-sounding voice. They should've gone with that direction in the English dub, but didn't.

It's not that I'm being purist or anything, it's just bad casting decisions that apparently, the voice director didn't listen to the Japanese voice. Hence why it should be counted as an example of They Just Didn't Care.

How can I rephrase it to be an example? Can I put something about several elements of the localization made people fell like that they think that the localizes did not care?

Jul 4th 2016 at 10:29:41 AM •••

You can't rephrase it because it's a massive shoehorn. I even took it to the Is This A Example thread and people there agreed with me on that.

Sep 7th 2016 at 12:30:43 PM •••

You know, this is starting to remind me of that dude on the RWBY discussion who was trying to get others to help him word an example so that it fit, when it was clearly shoehorning in any way, shape or form. What was his name...Oh yeah Trope Licious. You really should just drop this as it's clearly shoehorning no matter how you word it, and simply complaining to boot., and this course is gonna wind up with you banned likw him for being persistant past reason when multiple people tell you it's not an example at all

Edited by tryrar
Feb 19th 2016 at 1:40:03 PM •••

In regards to accusations of Story Branch Favoritism; I'm still playing through Conquest myself, but most of the reviews I've seen say they liked Conquest's storyline more than Birthright. Is it possible that the "conquest has the worst story" consensus comes from the Japanese version of the game rather than the English localization?

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Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:14:47 PM •••

Yes, that came from the japanese version. So far it seems it has been toned down for the western release.

Jan 12th 2016 at 9:40:57 PM •••

Sara Jaye, if you are unhappy with the negative reception the Nohr campaign has gotten, that is your right. But this is the YMMV page, and people will have biases in it. Factual inaccuracy or mislabelling is grounds to erase such a large segment of the page, but not personal taste. I think you would be better served by trying to tone down the language thereoff than to silence criticism with mass deletions. And I don't think that just erasing all of it is the answer either. If people want to complain that, in a Japanese-made game, the Fantasy Japanese faction is a land of peace and plenty while the European faction is a hellhole bent on conquest, that is their right.

Edited by SpectralTime
Dec 19th 2015 at 11:37:51 PM •••

An Ensemble Dark Horse is supposed to be “an unexpectedly popular minor character,” but right now it seems like a People Sit On Chairs list of every character that’s generally liked. I think we need to be a bit stricter with what counts as an example. There are twenty characters currently listed, which is nearly a third of the cast:

  • Ensemble Dark Horse:
    • Hana is one of the more popular characters on the Hoshido side, thanks mainly to her cute looks and Badass Adorable appeal. Not too surprisingly, she seems to be modelled after the classic examples of the Myrmidon class, which are almost always this trope.
    • While they started out as scrappies, opinions on Laswald, Odin, and Luna have made a complete 180 due to the quality of their supports with their lords and children and the fact that they actually are Inigo, Owain, and Severa.
    • Charlotte was one of the most unpopular characters when first revealed, but started gaining a lot of attention once the game came out and importers began translating her supports, which tend to range from either very sweet or just plain hilarious (for an example of both, see her supports with Nyx and her supports with Zero). It is not uncommon at all for her name to constantly pop up in messageboard discussions.
    • Flannel bears the dubious honor of being never once being featured in pre-release materials, but he's pretty quickly endeared himself to fans who have recruited him because of his Noble Wolf status, sharp dressed style, or his stats.
    • Zero may be one of the most unexpectedly popular characters at this point. When he was first revealed, he didn't get much fanfare. Once it was revealed he'd be the Gay Option for a male Avatar, fans started to take a liking to him. His... interesting supports, particularly his one with Camilla, have resulted in a lot of (positive) notoriety. It doesn't hurt that he's pretty much the only bow-user for quite a while on the Nohr route, where bow users are very useful.
    • The second-gen kids are pretty much a collective Base Breaker...with the exceptions of Ophelia, the daughter of Odin/Owain; Midoriko, the daughter of Kaze; Kinu, the daughter of Nishiki; and Velour, the daughter of Flannel.
    • Silas and Mozume are fairly popular due to their humble and kind personalities, being available in all three routes, and having solid overall growth rates.
    • Perhaps due to the depth of her character and her tragic story, Flora is surprisingly very popular with both the East and West, frequently getting a lot of fanart and scoring highly in polls.
    • Leo became this before his name was even revealed. A combination of his good looks, design, and class made him popular very quickly. His story role isn't insignificant either, and he has an all-round good set of supports. Leo is generally cited alongside his counterpart, Takumi, as one of the most developed characters in the game. All these factors combined to net him the #2 spot on a Famitsu poll, and the #1 male on the official popularity poll.
    • Oboro. Despite being a fairly minor character compared to the royals, she managed to place among the top 10 of a Famitsu poll *and* the top five of the official popularity poll due to her cute voice and quirky personality.
    • Despite not making it into the top 10 males on the official popularity poll, Foleo, Gunther, and Benoit took the 11th, 12th, and 13th spots respectively, which is pretty good, beating fellow Ensemble Dark Horse Silas.
    • Due to her fairly muscular physique, Rinka is also quite popular.

A lot of these characters don’t seem popular enough to stand out that much, and it seems extreme to have so many characters listed when the version that most of the English-speaking fandom will be playing isn’t even out yet.

In my opinion:

  • Leo doesn’t count because he is a main character, not a minor one.
  • Silas and Rinkah were very popular before release, but lost most of their fans when the game came out.
  • Lasward, Odin, and Luna don’t really have “unexpected” popularity as they’re returning darkhorses from the previous game.
  • I don’t see any more fan attention for Hana or Mozume than the average for a girl in these games, and neither did particularly well in the poll. Flannel is in a similar boat.
  • The second-gen daughters mentioned are pretty well-liked for being second-gen, but don’t really stick out that much.
  • I’m honestly not sure about Gunter, Benoit, and Foleo. They definitely get above-average love, but I can’t say whether the fanbases are really "unexpectedly large” for each of them.
  • Zero and Charlotte both are very popular, did well in the poll, and get a lot more love than other, similar units, but I also still occasionally see hate for them for being “problematic.” Do you guys think they should count, or are they Base Breakers?
  • Flora and Oboro definitely count, as they're notably more popular than characters with much greater plot importance.

What do you guys think? Are any of my impressions wrong? How many of these characters actually qualify as being more “unexpectedly popular” than their peers?

Edited by IniuriaTalis Hide/Show Replies
Dec 22nd 2015 at 3:35:36 PM •••

I think Draj is the only character to count, as she's just a minor boss that can be playable as an extra only via capturing.

Dec 24th 2015 at 7:56:10 PM •••

I forgot Draj, but I guess she could count, too, as she's the only boss with any fanbase at all. I would say that Oboro counts too, because she is treated as just another unit in-game but is more popular (in Japan) than main characters that get a lot of focus like Azura and the Hoshido sisters. Likewise, Flora does because she is a two support character with weird, late recruitment requirements who is much more popular than most normal units, including her more plot-relevant sister Felicia. I don't know if anyone else stands out as much as them.

Jan 3rd 2016 at 9:35:41 PM •••

It's been a couple weeks, so I'm just going to cut this down to the most clear examples.

Jan 15th 2016 at 9:19:40 PM •••

I've just now noticed this, and while I agree with most of the removals, I think Niles and Charlotte still deserve a place under the Darkhorse trope. Even the most popular characters have detractors. Those two characters are treated by the game as ordinary units but got large fanbases despite being minor characters. Having a hatedom at all doesn't detract from them being Darkhorses (this is the YMMV page after all). I won't add them back right away - I'll wait on a response.

Jan 18th 2016 at 12:21:55 PM •••

I guess that you're right about that. I thought that Base Breaker and Ensemble Dark Horse were mutually exclusive, but upon further inspection that doesn't seem to be the case. I'll re-add them.

Feb 25th 2016 at 5:28:12 PM •••

Tangently related, but shouldn't we cut the Germans Love David Hasselhoff entry about Japan not liking Nohr as much as the West? Because according to the official character poll it seems like Japan prefers Nohr too. The only Hoshido characters that made the top 15 for each gender are: The Royals (who are designed to be popular), Oboro, Setsuna, and Saizo.

Jun 25th 2015 at 7:07:16 AM •••

So, um...where exactly does Garon say the line listed under Narm? The only line in English that I can recall hearing for him is "You are my child now!", and I don't think the delivery for that one was bad at all.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek Hide/Show Replies
Jul 9th 2015 at 9:38:31 PM •••

Funny, I was just coming here for that very thing. His tone was pretty even through the whole thing. And the overall delivery was good.

Feb 19th 2016 at 1:38:22 PM •••

While I do agree it sounds kind of odd, personally I think it doesn't count as Narm since it helps to highlight just how insane and disconnected from reality Garon is. But that could just be me.

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