Ask The Tropers

A single one-on-one edit war is not a valid reason for a lock.

Then is there a way to stop said troper from constantly adding back clearly false information despite the same facts being laid out to him over and over again?

You could PM the troper and ask them to discuss the issue here instead of continuing to edit war.

The problem's the troper, not the page.

As an aside, is the American continuity "valid" for the page regardless, as long as it's clearly mentioned as non-canon to the modern series?

At any rate, I strongly believe the pages should be locked (at least temporarily) to prevent any further vandalism or a potential Edit War about this trivial matter.

The entry had been added and removed no less than four times. The two of you have already in an Edit War.

I've contacted the troper about it; I'll wait and see what he says.

@Arctimon; that counts it as an Edit War already? Hoo boy...

^Add-revert-add or revert-add-revert, yes.

EDIT: Just want to add that it's good you brought it to ATT, but it really should have been brought after the third edit. Regardless of whoever ends up being "right" about it, edit warring is frowned upon when there's several ways for their to issues to be resolved (here at ATT and discussion pages, to name two examples).

You're right. Thank you for informing me about this! Also, I promise not to take any further action with the pages if changes are reverted yet again.

Hello. I was informed by Prinzenick via PM that if I wanted to explain my stance, that I should post a comment here.

My argument is that Sonic's home planet is - officially - named Mobius, and - as one can see in my edit summaries - I used only Sega's own printed documentation to make this argument.

My first evidence is this interview with Yuji Naka:

"For one thing, Sonic 2 is twice the size of Sonic 1. For another, Sonic has to run through more levels...many more than in Sonic 1. Also, the new Mobius worlds are brighter, crisper, and much more detailed. However, we think players will be too busy getting through the game to spend any time enjoying the scenery. Especially since Sonic will have a new friend"

Prinzenick's counterargument supposes that the phrase "Mobius worlds" is a mistranslation regarding loop structures that Sonic navigates in the game. There's multiple problems with that, starting with the very website he cited to support his argument. The very first paragraph on that page is:

"There is currently a mistaken notion amongst some Sonic fans that the name Mobius, for Sonic's home planet in the Sega of America (SoA) canon, originates from a mistranslation in a Yuji Naka interview."

That statement is the exact opposite of Prinzenick's argument.

There's also the matter of what Yuji Naka said: "However, we think players will be too busy getting through the game to spend any time enjoying the scenery. (...)" Naka was clearly discussing the crispness of the background graphics, not game mechanics of any sort. If this was actually about in-game loops, the translator would have needed to intentionally and completely change the content of his comment, and I seriously doubt Sega would allow that.

In addition, there are two other references I used to make my argument.

This excerpt from Sega's own promo comic for Sonic 1:

"Welcome to Planet Mobius! This used to be a real fun place to live until the evil Robotnik popped up and started taking over the planet with his killer robots. Only one person stands between Robotnik and total world domination! (...)"

I think it's worth mentioning that this promo was NOT published through Archie Comics: it's an unrelated comic that was published through Sega's own publishing house in 1991, predating the supposedly mistranslated interview with Yuji Naka by a year.

My final reference is Sega's Sonic Bible, which is an internal company document that was written in 1991:

"It's sometime in the 21st century on Planet Mobius. Sonic the Hedgehog, an orphan, grows up with his forest friends in the Green Hill Zone (...)"

That's three pieces of evidence in support of my position, all three from Sega company themselves, and two of them predate the interview with Yuji Naka. I think we can safely say "Mobius" doesn't come from a mistranslation that occurred a year after the word was already in marketing.

By contrast, Prinzenick's counter evidence consists of a common misconception, a a single Gameinformer article that just happens to not mention Mobius, and a comment from Ian Flynn, a writer who - though he personally worked on Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW) (both of which aren't canonical) - has by his own word exactly zero impact on Sega's marketing decisions. Lastly, the setting of Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog - which Ian worked on - was explicitly Mobius.

EDIT: several wiki formatting fixes

"Mobius" was canon for Sega of America/Europe in the early 90s but doesn't seem to have been canon in Japan and is no longer canon now.

The only reason Archie Sonic got away with still using the name was because it was a Long Runner that started when Mobius was in active use, and post-reboot effort was made to use "Sonic's World," which is the current name for the planet. It's mandated by Sega, both for Archie post-boot and IDW, that Mobius cannot be used at all and Ian is complying with that restriction.

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Mobius

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Mobius_(Archie)#Trivia

EDIT: IDW'S trivia page: "Much like the post-reboot of the Archie comic, the word "Mobius" is banned—the planet is simply called "Sonic's World" now. Unlike the Post-Boot, which allowed the names "Mobian" and "Mobini", anything related to Mobius is banned in this comic."

That wiki page cites no references for it's claims. This is the main reason I prefer to not rely on Wikis for information. Also, this Q and A from ComicCon directly contradicts it:

Question: "Does Sega have hard restrictions on the comics?"

Answer from Sega Representative: "So Sega might not step in and say you can't use Sonic Labrynth, even if they didn't, I would, No we didn't put any hard and fast? (can't tell) rules saying you can't do this or you can't do that, we approach things on a case-to-case basis or whatever makes sense for the character and the brand, and just telling the story of Sonic in general, making sure we're doing it properly, without jumping the shark."

Can you provide a direct reference to Sega's mandate to never reference Mobius?

EDIT: formatting changes

I don't think the mandates are public-access or meant to be known at all, which is why all we know came from Ian FLynn, IDW, interviews, or personal anecdotes. This FAQ mentions mandates in an oblique way, while the IDW interview says this: "As for the Sega relationship, they approve everything. From the story pitches to the scripts to the artwork, everything has to go through them. This time around they've been more directly involved with the stories themselves."

Either way Mobius is clearly not a thing in IDW or post-reboot.

I feel I shouldn't need to say this, but if the mandates aren't public-access or weren't meant to be known at all, Flynn wouldn't have the right to mention them at all. That, and the fact that the stories need to go through Sega is pretty obvious.

After reading your links, the closest thing you have there to direct evidence of mandates even existing is that first twitter link, and that's about the fact that since Sonic Forces, Classic Sonic is considered to be from a different dimension than - and is thus a different character than, Dreamcast Sonic, so Sega doesn't want characters from their respective worlds mixing.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the name of Sonic's planet. The name "Mobius" has been printed in hundreds of comic issues in two different comic books worldwide, hundreds of cartoon episodes in three different cartoons, and multiple official Sega documents regarding the games, both internal and external, since the franchise began in 1991. I see no evidence that Sega has mandated it's removal, and even if that was the case, it can't feasibly be applied retroactively. This was about Sonic 1 and Sonic CD, which are in the same continuity, and the official Sega documents about Sonic 1 from the time of it's release name the planet "Mobius".

Was it Sega of America or Japan, though? AFAIK Japan has never used Mobius, using Earth instead, and post-Adventure it's all been streamlined to match the Japanese canon so Sonic's World is/was Earth too.

Bump?

As I already showed in my first post, Yuji Naka - who doesn't speak English - called the planet Mobius. I also showed that it wasn't a mistranslation.

^ Is the original Japanese version of this quote available to the public? It's entirely possible the English-language source used the localized name of the planet when translating Naka's statement.

The interview was conducted by Sega's official magazine: they would not be able to change the content of the interview without Sega's explicit official consent. Add that to the evidence already shown, including internal Sega documents dating to 1991: "Mobius" is clearly established as the official name of the planet in multiple media, including the games. What is needed is absolute proof that this changed later on.

Also keep in mind that Sega's official stance as of now is that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic are separate entities from two separate dimensions: what's lore in Modern Sonic's world is not necessarily lore to Classic Sonic.

The documents mentioning Mobius were SOA-SOE, though. I found more info about the SOJ stuff!

In the Japanese Sonic 1 manual, South Island is in the Pacific Ocean on Earth, while Christmas Island, Sonic's birthplace, is also Earth. The internal documents of SOJ from 1990, translated by the Sega Technical Institute, also make no mention of Mobius. If we have to mention Mobius we should probably clarify it was Sega of America/Europe.

^^ I've played almost every mainline Sonic game that exists, I don't recall any of them actually using "Mobius" ever.

Sonic Adventure 2 explicitly calls the planet "Earth".

lalalei2001

Since everything Sonic has to be approved by Sega Enterprises or it would never see print, it doesn't matter which specific branch of the company said anything. This situation isn't like the Brazillian Megaman comics, where the company was caught by surprise: Sega knows exactly what is going on with the games in each region, and approves each element of them. The only possible exceptions would be secondary media like comics.

Looking at your sources, your first link is raw, untranslated Japanese. In addition, the first release of Sonic 1 was June 1991 in the United States: Japan's first release came a month later, as Sonic was explicitly made to appeal to Americans. All of Sega's internal documents for the US release identify the planet as Mobius.

Your second and third links are related, as they both refer to the same source. There is exactly one mention of Earth between them both, however, the site conveniently has no link to any original Japanese text, much like the wiki page I noted before. Instead, it links to an interview in Russian.

I also used a translator on the last link you gave, which, for the record, is a defunct Japanese fan-site:

"The world of fairy tales has spread rapidly with the passage of time. Adventures in a mysterious world, unexplored jungles, raging open seas, ancient cities, lost continents ... SONIC's adventures never stopped."

It goes on to explain how a Sega employee supposedly got a flight jacket from a U.S. Air Force test pilot, the emblem on which became the inspiration for Sonic. Given that we know exactly how Sonic was developed, we can dismiss this story flat out. Additionally, there is no mention of Sonic being from Earth in that article at all.

EDIT: formatting changes

^ Judging from what you've seen: In what games, and in what regions, does Sonic come from Mobius?

Sega is a multinational corporation: region is effectively irrelevant unless you're telling me that the headquarters has no control over their branch offices.

As I've already shown above, the name "Mobius" has been printed in hundreds of comic issues in two different comic books worldwide, hundreds of cartoon episodes in three different cartoons, and multiple official documents regarding the games, both internal and external, since the franchise began in 1991. Aside from the internal documents, these media have all appeared worldwide. I see no evidence that Sega has mandated it's removal, and even if that was the case, that's a change that can't feasibly be applied retroactively. This was about Sonic 1 and Sonic CD, which are in the same continuity, and the official Sega documents about Sonic 1 from the time of it's release name the planet "Mobius".

Unless some actual counterevidence starts appearing, I've presented more than enough official evidence to make my point.

EDIT: added clarification of worldwide distribution

As an outsider to the Sonic fandom, this seems to be a JP canon vs. EN canon (with retcons involved on both sides) argument.

Both are completely valid to have on our trope/work pages.

Thanks, RallyBot2.

Mobius doesn't actually show up in any of the games directly either. Do note it's only the manuals that mention Mobius at any point. However, that was declared non-canon last I checked.

Mobius still has its uses, noting it was created by other regions as well. It's also valid for some of the TV Shows, where it actually is the canon at the time. The comics did retcon it out, if I remember right.

Overall, it's crazy how it's handled. Not as well as the Eggman/Robotnik thing was handled either. Even then, it'd make sense for SOJ to just declare it was never the case and move on(it doesn't mean we can't trope what it used to be, as it was legitimate at one point).

I'd say the fact that it hasn't been referenced since the Classic-era (over twenty years ago) is all the proof you need that Sega doesn't want the writers using it.

They literally just refer to Sonic's homeworld as "Sonic's World" now.

1. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

2. Guidebooks and other lore media are proof that a game series' canon isn't restricted to what's directly experienced by the gamer.

3. Sonic the Hedgehog is a multimedia franchise, not merely a videogame franchise. The last direct mention of Mobius I know of was in 2017 in the Archie comics - not twenty years ago. Additionally, Starz still airs Sonic SatAM on their channel, this very day, and that wouldn't happen if Sega wanted to quash the series.

No one ever said Sega wanted to quash SatAM. But its continuity is not the same continuity as the games.

That's obvious. My point is, it's official Sonic media that uses the name "Mobius" for Sonic's world. If Sega had a problem with that name being used - in any context - I don't see why they'd still allow the series to air.

I dunno if SatAM is airing right now but the DVD rights are owned by different companies than Sega (Shout Factory and N Circle until the rights expired), so they wouldn't have a say in whether it's allowed to be released or not. I don't think Sega can stop series from airing but they can control references to them and how Sonic is currently portrayed—the Archie comics got in trouble for referencing the OVA once, and IDW isn't allowed to reference the cartoons/OVA due to Sega not wanting to focus on Sonic's past incarnations.

EDIT: Ah!

"Ultimately SEGA owns everything in the book. If it's associated with Sonic in the book, it is by extension SEGA's. From my understanding, that is why BioWare could so freely emulate the Dark Legion for the Marauders [in Sonic Chronicles]. I know there was some confusion elsewhere concerning rights to SatAM. As it was explained, SEGA owns the intellectual property—the characters and such—but DiC retains the rights to the animation. So you wouldn’t see SEGA reselling SatAM boxsets willy-nilly. Conversely, DiC wouldn’t be able to just up and make a new Sonic cartoon."

-Ian Flynn

Most of this is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is that the pages for Sonic 1-3 and CD can say that they take place on Mobius, as that was the then-current canon.

FWIW, straight from the horse's mouth.

The fact that Flynn, etc. are not currently allowed to use Mobius is irrelevant. The Genesis games took place on Mobius in pre-retcon English language canon. Unless you're going to try and dispute that, this discussion appears to be over.

I think we should take this to the English Localization Cleanup thread since this ATT is getting very long with no resolution in sight.

Agreed. If people want to have a say in this matter, go ^.