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24th Oct, 2021 10:52:59 PM

Why would linking to Wikipedia be bad? Or is it just for "too lazy to write description, read wikipedia's" cases?

24th Oct, 2021 11:45:56 PM

The only policies to Wikipedia we have is Weblinks Are Not Examples and About Images and Copyright. I don't see why linking to Wikipedia would be a problem besides the phrasing, those other pages were likely cut for being stub or poorly written overall.

Edited by Amonimus
25th Oct, 2021 12:07:40 AM

linking to Wikipedia itself isn't bad, but examples shouldn't say "more info available on Wikipedia" for the same reason entries shouldn't refer to each other. we don't know what kind of shape that Wikipedia article is going to be in down the road. the information may not be there anymore.

also, JIKTV is a serial ban evader, so if James is them, all their edits get reverted on principle anyway.

25th Oct, 2021 12:45:18 AM

It's unlikely James Austin is related to JIKTV and K Jtropes considering edit history, though it's possible. They probably just copied the formatting from other pages (Kensuke Sasaki was made by Cieloazul).

Edited by Amonimus
25th Oct, 2021 01:36:51 AM

@Amonimus no, the ATT you linked isn't the one I'm talking about. The one I'm talking about made an explicit decision to cull all the "As usual you can find more at The Other Wiki" from all pro wrestling pages. I think the reason it's so widespread is the same reason it's been so hard to purge This Troper from the website - it's so widespread that people think it's something they're supposed to do rather than something to avoid.

I don't think JamesAustin is JIKTV - aside from pro wrestling their interests seem to be different - but I am a bit perturbed that he's just copypasting old cut JIKTV pages back into existence. For example, when I cutlisted Sir Oliver Humperdink, I took a good bit of care to carefully add everything that was being deleted back to the WCW Managers page, fixed some misuse and added a couple things. JamesAustin just copypasted the old version of the page back and deleted my edits to the WCW Managers page instead of importing them over. If he wants to take responsibility for some things initially created by JIKTV that's... well my personal feelings are that if there aren't 20+ tropes for a wrestler they shouldn't have their own page, but that's just me. However, reinstating the content as written by the banned editor is something else.

Edited by McJeff
25th Oct, 2021 01:43:51 AM

I think I've found not just one but two ATT about this: [1] [2]

25th Oct, 2021 02:35:04 AM

I've tried to look this line through Google and oh my goooood...

25th Oct, 2021 02:51:07 AM

Iím struggling to understand why people think linking to Wikipedia is a bad thing? The whole point as I see it is that it stops people cluttering up our pages with information that is better served by that site while we concentrate on tropable material.

25th Oct, 2021 03:49:19 AM

One aspect is that it's unnecessary. In today's world, people know that they can look up almost everything on Wikipedia. It's just irritating to keep reminding people of what they already know.

25th Oct, 2021 05:15:20 AM

^ It's a courtesy to our readers. I don't see that as irritating or unnecessary.

25th Oct, 2021 05:45:18 AM

Should we instead put The Other Wiki links on every page for further reading then?

25th Oct, 2021 05:49:52 AM

^ Sigh. Please don't use Appeal to Extremes, that's a logical fallacy. We can have positions between "no links on to Wikipedia on TV Tropes ever" and "link everything on TV Tropes to Wikipedia".

Edited by Exxolon
Tabs MOD
25th Oct, 2021 08:41:10 AM

I don't really care if the description links to Wikipedia, but the "As usual" is very irritating. Zap that. It's as if the troper who put it there has some kind of personal Running Gag on all these pages and expects the reader is reading every one. "Ah-ha," says the astute reader, "This page says 'As usual', and I am totally in the know why because I read those other articles and am in on the joke." It's about as "clever" as potholing your own statements to Captain Obvious.

25th Oct, 2021 09:48:58 AM

^That's reasonable. Links should have context. For example for wrestlers I like "For a detailed breakdown of their life and wrestling career, see their Wikipedia page here" or something similar.

Edited by Exxolon
25th Oct, 2021 09:52:57 AM

^ that seems fine to me. just remember that examples shouldn't depend on Wikipedia for context.

25th Oct, 2021 11:04:27 AM

Also, if anyone here wants to know more about what the problem with KJ Tropes is (aside from the ban evading), I'm going to ask you to look at the edit history for Paul Ellering - I just pulled half the tropes on the page because of misuse. EVERY PAGE HE MADE is like that. It was like he would read the trope's title and take a guess at what it meant.

25th Oct, 2021 11:06:14 AM

To be fair, that's what a lot of tropers seem to do. Pop into TRS and you'll see what I mean.

I don't care if we allow Wikipedia links or not, but it does feel a little superfluous.

25th Oct, 2021 12:35:58 PM

I can just go through the search results and remove all "As usual," while keeping the rest, if that's the plan.

25th Oct, 2021 12:43:07 PM

nah the plan is to remove all the wikipedia links from the pro wrestling articles per the ATT

25th Oct, 2021 12:45:12 PM

Huh? People don't agree with that. This thread sure doesn't, anyway.

Edited by WarJay77
Tabs MOD
25th Oct, 2021 01:35:13 PM

I wouldn't miss the link lines if they were gone, like, I'm very very OK with the links being gone. If they stay, rephrase the sentence so it's not telling readers to go off-site.

Edited by Tabs
Fighteer MOD
25th Oct, 2021 02:34:01 PM

James Austin is definitely not JIKTV, not unless they've moved to a different country. As for the Wikipedia links... one of the basic principles of operating a wiki is that you should not send people to other wikis. The more page views we get, the more ad revenue we get, the more engagement it drives in our rankings, etc. Sending people off to Wikipedia defeats that purpose.

Secondarily, if anyone hasn't heard of Wikipedia by now or doesn't know that they can look up wrestlers there, it's not our job to tell them. The "why don't we link every page to Wikipedia" counterargument may be a strawman, but it's not that much of a strawman. It's actually quite valid, in fact.

Thirdly, Wikipedia is a tertiary source, and bibliographical rules say one should preferentially link to primary or secondary sources. In the case of our media articles, a primary source might be the original of a written work (like a fanfic) or a creator's YouTube channel. If a pro wrestler has an official fan page, that could be a valid link, but we don't put tertiary sources (or secondary sources) in article descriptions.

(Note that sources should not be commercial in nature, so if the "official fan page" is their merch store or something, just leave it off. It's not that hard to search for "Dipshit McGee", or whoever the latest popular wrestler is.)

Edited by Fighteer
25th Oct, 2021 02:35:27 PM

^^^^ McJeff, that ATT thread is from four years ago. Consensus can change a lot in that time, I don't think you can rely on eight entry ATT from 2017 as justification in 2021.

Edited by Exxolon
25th Oct, 2021 02:49:09 PM

^^ imho, if someone wants to know more, all they need to do is copypaste the page title to the URL bar. Saving rare someone 2 clicks isn't that much of a charity. But we do use The Wiki Rule where it's needed.

Fighteer, so you say we should go through those search results and cut these hook lines entirely?

Edited by Amonimus
Fighteer MOD
25th Oct, 2021 03:44:52 PM

^ "Wrestler has a Wikipedia article" is not The Wiki Rule. That is utterly nonsensical. Maybe if there were, for example, a John Cena Wiki (which there might be, who knows), it would apply, but not otherwise.

And yes, we should remove all Wikipedia links in media article descriptions, period. Doesn't matter what they are for.

25th Oct, 2021 04:02:03 PM

^ I did not relate wikipedia to wiki rule in my comment. Anyway, unless somebody does it before I get to it, I'll do the cleanup tomorrow since I've brought it up.

26th Oct, 2021 04:15:06 AM

I take IMDB links at the end of the description fall under the same logic.

Edited by Amonimus
26th Oct, 2021 04:23:42 AM

Unsurprisingly, almost all pages that follow this pattern appear to be created (or added to existing pages) by KJTropes and JIKTV in 2013-2015 and got copycat'ed by others later.

Edited by Amonimus
26th Oct, 2021 06:52:22 AM

As requested, I've bulldozered (from Film.MonstersCrashThePajamaParty to Wrestling.JasonTheTerrible) over 300 cases "you can find the basics on The Other Wiki". Besides some odd spacing, I haven't touched anything else.

Fighteer MOD
26th Oct, 2021 07:16:51 AM

Yes, IMDB links are also inappropriate.

26th Oct, 2021 07:41:02 AM

I went to the Professional Wrestling page and combed through the Wrestlers up to Glacier. I think this should be given a short term clean up thread, because there are so many to go through and check.

26th Oct, 2021 07:49:32 AM

I personally think that linking to Wikipedia (or any external page) is just lazy. If you're writing an article here, you can and should provide the basics about the subject yourself, in your own words.

26th Oct, 2021 09:32:14 AM

I've went ahead and made a thread in Short Term to not clutter this query anymore, there's a lot more cases like this.