Lots of Square Hole Round Trope examples.: The Lancer

It seems this page has degenerated into people twisting the definition of this trope to accomodate their favourite works. I know the crux of the trope is that The Lancer is the heroe's foil, but that doesnt mean the heroes love interest, as some tropers seem to think. I mean, somebody cited Yuna as The Lancer in Final Fantasy X. Shes the freaking Staff Chick! People seem to think that theres always a Lancer in any group, and are just adding whichever character that seems to display any one of the common traits. In other words, this page needs cleaning.

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Nothing that says The Lancer can't be a Staff Chick. The Lancer is about group dynamics, Staff Chick is about a collusion of specific abilities and personality traits.

That said... yeah, people love to stretch things to make their favorite heroes a Five-Man Band. You can try clearing out bad examples, but I don't think it's something we're going to be able to stop on a macro level.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

The favourite character trait people seem to use to identify a character as The Lancer is 'the character likely to go and do things on their own'. Thus, the train of thought seems to be, "This character left the group one time on disc one, so they must be The Lancer". Also, a few examples seem to be there solely because the character happens to use a lance! My thought is that the article itself is too broad and needs a rewrite.

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I'd pull that example for a different reason - Yuna's arguably The Hero.

Well, the trope is necessarily broad because it's a broad character type. We could try to tighten up the description somewhat to shorten it a little, but I don't think there's anything wrong with its actual definition.

Like I said, if you want to purge bad examples then feel free, but it's going to be mostly a losing battle and there's not much we can do about that.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

^^ Indeed, if any member of FFX's cast is The Lancer, it's Tidus.

Look, I realise there's going to be misuse with any trope, but the level of misuse here is getting absurd. The description could definitely be made more specific.

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The description could definitely be made more specific.

How? The trope is "foil to The Hero, his opposite in some ways but similar in others". The trope is very well defined (though like I said, the description might need some work). What would you change to discourage misuse?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

That whole 'powers and skills common to the Lancer' section. I think that's what is causing the most misuse.

Here are a few more gems. Apparently:

Rinoa is The Lancer of FFVIII. She's The Chick.

Largo of Valkirya Chronicles is a possible Lancer. He's a standard Big Guy. I guess being Lancer class is enough for consideration eh?

Kimahri is another Lancer candidate for FFX. Again, standard Big Guy. Again, uses a Lance shaped weapon.

edited 15th Nov '10 9:11:56 AM by OmegaKross

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If you find bad examples, just fix them.

I'd have no trouble with nuking the "common Lancer powers" list. Basically all it says is "whatever the rest of the party isn't good at, he will be" which should be adaquetely described in the rest of the description anyway.

edited 15th Nov '10 9:17:06 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Well, okay, but I think I just started an edit war by deleting the Real Life and Religion sections. We dont live in a fictional universe, and trying to shoehorn actual people into a trope like this is absurd.

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Real Life is always disposable. Religion And Mythology is fair game I believe.

Fight smart, not fair.

Go check out the edit history to see how stupid it was.

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Like pretty much every other tropes, if you're not familiar with the work in question it's hard to make judgement calls. But overall The Lancer has to have some sort of dynamic relationship with The Hero, the extremes being a friend who gives them support and advise or a Token Evil Teammate who often rejects their orders. If they're just another personality without that relationship then they're likely a subset of another member of the team.

Its not only that. The article explicitly says that the Lancer is basically the hero's number 2. What many people seem to be thinking is that this is a character who is basically the opposite personality of the hero, while ignoring all other criteria. There are way more points to consider than just that.

Can't think of anything witty, so have this instead...

Haven't played or watched some of what you deleted, but remember that just because someone is one thing on the Five-Man Band list does not mean they cannot be others. It's entirely possible for The Big Guy to also be The Lancer. Neither do you need an entire Five-Man Band for someone to fit theroles of things on them. Bob can be The Big Guy and The Smart Guy, though it's usually easier to just list him as Genius Bruiser.

Personally, I'd edit the bit about being 'the foil to The Hero.' This is definitely often the case, but not always, as the description seems to state.

Re:The examples you deleted- I'm not sure about this "Largo" character, but it's entirely possible he was both The Big Guy and The Lancer. From Final Fantasy X, can't honestly say one way or the other. The biblical example looks like it fit, and belongs on the page- Myth & Religion aren't quitetreated as Real Life.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

Kimihari is just a character who uses a lance. He's very much not The Lancer.

Is there a trope for using a lance as a weapon of choice? We could link the page to that in the description as a way to tell people where those examples really go.

edited 15th Nov '10 3:06:36 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

^^ I know characters can fill more than one spot in a Five Man Band, but the examples I deleted didnt. Rinoa Heartily is definitely The Chick. Kimahri and Auron are both the Big Guy, though Auron kinda becomes the Smart Guy at times. Largo is a textbook Big Guy, and was mentioned only because he happens to be Lancer class. Maybe you feel I'm being too strict about it, but there is only so much leeway you can give before things start getting stupid.

And the biblical example I deleted? Simon being Jesus' Lancer? You really want dumb stuff like that on the wiki? Gimme a break. The bible may get very silly in places, but it isnt a comic book.

Dunno if we have a trope for spear-using characters in general.

edited 15th Nov '10 3:13:16 PM by OmegaKross

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We have one for spears and pole arms. But not for Lances. They're two different types of weapons.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I think there is something we can do to make the article more clear. The typical Lancer character is the Hotheaded, tempremental guy on the team. The number 2 to the Hero's captain. The guy most likely to get jealous of the Hero and pull a Face Heel Turn. We should make it specific to that character type. At present the article is way too broad. Also Shima, I think we definitely should add a link to whichever trope is about spear users in general, for those who cant seem to grasp that this isnt about 'characters who wield Lances'. Yes, I do know they're different weapons entirely.

EDIT: Anybody wanna go through the Anime and Manga examples? I haven't seen half of them so its not like I can make informed descisions on my own.

edited 15th Nov '10 3:29:21 PM by OmegaKross

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Also, YKTTWing a trope for lance wielders might help as well.

edited 15th Nov '10 3:32:41 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Most people are really referring to spear users when they post examples here. Actual Lance users seem extremely uncommon.

Can't think of anything witty, so have this instead...

Fair enough. Blade On A Stick is the trope that they want then.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

But that's not the trope. The trope is "foil to The Hero". If the hero is calm, collected, and professional, then The Lancer will be excitable and passionate. If the hero is an Idiot Hero, then The Lancer will be a Deadpan Snarker.

There is no one personality type for The Lancer; the trope is defined entirely in relation to The Hero. Which makes it a broad trope, yes, but that's okay — it's a broad concept.

edited 17th Nov '10 9:47:46 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Simon Peter is totally The Lancer to Jesus. Have you even read the New Testament?

There is also a difference between the character trope and the ensemble trope. A character can be The Lancer to The Hero without it being a Five-Man Band. As part of a Five-Man Band a character would act differently if they were part of an Action Duo, because changing the number of characters means that they will have different responsibilities.

That's why the trope is so broad, because it can be placed in ensembles ranging from 2-10 characters or even more. Also, it's less of a character trope as it is a relationship trope. Calling someone The Lancer doesn't mean they have a certain personality (like a Deadpan Snarker) but it means they have a particular type of relationship with The Hero.