Pokémon General Thread

Zygarde being an optional sidequest with little influence on the story does not make it an afterthought. Likewise, the fandom being disappointed because they hyped something up they had no reason to also does not mean it was shoehorned in.

You mean exactly as is the case in DP, RS, and BW where they aren't relevant to the main plot?

So your only argument is that previous generations had third versions. That's not a good enough reason to assume a third version.

No it doesn't. Again, just because previous generations did something does not mean all generations have to.

Again, Zygarde makes perfect sense in SM if you don't assume it has to be relevant. Could a third version have been intended? Sure. But it's also just as easily possible that Zygarde was always intended to be a sidequest in SM.

And it is also possible that I'm not a person, but a monkey randomnly mashing a keyboard that somehow is making coherent posts on a forum. Doesn't mean it is plausible.

Occam's razor, Chariot.

You realize that Occam's Razor supports my argument, not yours right? Zygarde always being meant to be a sidequest in SM is way simpler than a third version being planned only to be cancelled and Zygarde being shoehorned into SM.

So you are assuming Gen VII started development way before generation VI was released. And Zygarde was used in the Kalos anime rather than in the Alola arc just because.

Yeah no.

Games take time to make so it makes perfect sense for SM to have been in the works at the same time as XY. With Zygarde being a Pokemon that originated in Kalos, it also makes perfect sense to use it in the XY anime even though it didn't become relevant to SM.

You're running so hard into Implausible Deniability right now Chariot.

You're trying to argue that Zygarde, a third legendary in the same vein as Rayquaza, Giratina, Kyrurem, and Necrozma, was never planned to have it's own game despite the aforementioned having their own third games, and that it being placed in a game with no thematic relevance to it whatsoever and having no impact on the game's main campaign is in no way an indication that a Z version might have existed.

Like, you're basically denying all of the clear circumstantial evidence to the contrary just to justify your argument.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Well Chariot, I've been noticing your presence for, what, 4 years, and, while you've never struck me as a conventional thinker, this is verging on denial.

Okay, tone down the personal attacks.

Where there's life, there's hope.

Its not even like we're saying a Z version was 100% confirmed to have existed at some point, because Chariot is right in that there is no affirmation without an official word from Game Freak.

But like...there's so much circumstantial evidence to support it that unless you have any direct evidence to deny it, there's like a 95% chance it existed.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jan 29th 2019 at 8:56:46 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

There isn't any "clear circumstantial evidence" that a Z version was considered though. The only argument for a Z version is that Zygarde fits the trio and other paired sets have had third versions. That's not evidence for a Z version, that's an assumption.

Yeah it's possible there was a third version but there's no reason to assume there was outside of pattern recognition and patterns can be broken.

Its more of a reasonable assumption than you're making right now. But I'm not going to continue this if you're not gonna budge.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jan 29th 2019 at 9:12:33 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

"Zygarde being an optional sidequest with little influence on the story does not make it an afterthought." It actually does. But let's say he's underutilized instead if you want.

"Likewise, the fandom being disappointed because they hyped something up they had no reason to also does not mean it was shoehorned in." I've never said anything related to the fandom's reaction so I don't know why you're bringing this up.

"You mean exactly as is the case in DP, RS, and BW where they aren't relevant to the main plot?"

You mean exactly the games that have a third version or a sequel that expands on them just like S/M did for necrozma ?

"So your only argument is that previous generations had third versions. That's not a good enough reason to assume a third version."

If you want to put it this way, that's still one more valid argument that your post that still operates on at least two conclusions that does not follows their respective premises.

"No it doesn't. Again, just because previous generations did something does not mean all generations have to."

You could almost have a good point if this wasn't pokemon.

"Games take time to make so it makes perfect sense for SM to have been in the works at the same time as XY."

Yeah, if you only look in a vacuum of the affirmation "games takes time to make" and do not at any point look at the rate where pokemon games are usually created and ignore the fact there's a gap in that schedule precisely where a Z version would fit. perfect sense indeed.

"Patterns can be broken" doesn't really hold up that well in a series that is so reliant on reusing patterns.

And besides, legendaries with alternate forms with no plot going around them is nothing common, quite the oddity instead.

There's no official evidence that Z was a thing planned, but there's a pile of circumstancial evidence pointing to it : gap in the release schedule, the anime adpating that storyline, zygarde having a surprising amount of content meant for him already back in the days of X and Y such as the exclusive moves, unprecedented absence of 3rd version/sequels... It's not definitive evidence, alright, but it is enough to make the occam's razor in favor of this theory.

Edited by Yumil on Jan 29th 2019 at 3:31:48 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

Two questions for Chariot:

1. If Zygarde was meant to be irrelevant, then why create the Zygarde Cell quest? This quest would actually make it more distinctive than the "Third Version" Legendaries insofar as it takes Kyurem's (and later Necrozma's) incompleteness shtick Up To Eleven. Why not just make an item turning "Complete" Zygarde into a Mega/Primal form?
2. Conversely, if Zygarde was connected to Alola, why introduce him through Dr. Sycamore's Assistants and not through e.g. Wicke or Dr. Burnet (i.e. an Alolan resident)?

"Shoehorned" is a fitting term because the quest for the Zygarde Cells is utterly disconnected from the rest of Gen 7, regardless of what its status would have been in Gen 6. In fact, Dexio and Sina give Zygarde a connection to Kalos that, based on your argument, is wholly unnecessary.

Zygarde would fit the general^note i.e. genre-Consistent pattern of an Infinity +1 Sword in Alola... except that "Third Legendaries" are designed for that purpose in the "Opening Versions" anyway, and Necrozma served that role in Sun & Moon in a manner more conventional to the series.^note i.e. internally-consistent Heck, Zygarde itself was this sort of Infinity +1 Sword in X & Y, its "incomplete" status notwithstanding. So an alternate to my first question would be "If Zygarde was supposed to be Alola's Infinity +1 Sword, then why was Necrozma made?"

---

That all being said, I am now going to be Necrozma's Trainer and raise a few points that would suggest that development of Z was not as far along as people thought:

It is true that the Zygarde Cell plotline would have been a variation of the Gen 6 plot sufficient to justify a third version: a twist on the theme of the series. And the bit we got in Sun & Moon proves that the mechanics were there; it only lacked a connection to the plot.

However, Zygarde would not have addressed the weak link of the original X & Y: The "Rivals". Having 1 Friendly Rival adventuring the same time as you and getting into their own troubles with the evil team? Good. Having 4 FRs? Complete dilution. At best, Zygarde would have fixed either Serena/Calem and/or Trevor. Tierno could have benefited from a lineup change that would have shown off his Dance Battler theme a bit better, though YMMV on how much mileage would have been had by that. However, even with all of these, Shauna would still have been The Chick and there's still the problem of whichever of the first 2 I mentioned that isn't emphasized as the Zygarde Tracker. In a game that would advertise a "complete" Zygarde, fixing only 50% of the rivals is a bit of a letdown.

The Smogon column hints at the development of a Battle Frontier, but I don't buy it. There was already the Battle Charletains which served the purpose of the Battle Subway,^note plus the fact that X & Y being concurrent with B2 & W2 would have caused problems with the Conductors being in 2 places at once; a similar problem would exist for prequels, and there was also a venue for more traditional rematches: The Battle Chateau. Improved transport, I could buy, given the sequence resorting that was done in B2 & W2.

The column also points out the seeming absence of paired Megas like Froslass and Slowking, as well as the unevenness of only Greninja having a Mega-type form. On the one hand, it would have been sufficient to include only the ORAS Megas in the "Upper Version", supplying all extant Megas a good platform to play on. You could add the Kalos Starters due to the regional tie, but any others would have seemed to be against the "focusing" mission of an "Upper Version" due to being exclusive to that version.

But a less obvious omission, and hence additional evidence of concept, can be detected by following the thread of adding Megas to the Elite teams to its logical conclusion: giving them to Gym Leaders as well. We saw a foretaste of this in Ash's battle against Wulfric, who was the only Gym Leader other than Korinna to field a Mega, albeit one of a Pokemon on his roster.

But let's take a look at Ash's companion, Clemont, the would-be Marquis de Voltage:^note As the Leader of the Capital's Gym, I would have had his rank as Duke, but whatever. He left any would-be Gym Pokemon at the Gym^note in the care of Clembot choosing some Pokemon that wouldn't be traditional for a Kalos Electric type trainer^note While he's officially Dedenne's trainer, the fact that it travels with Bonnie nullifies that entry.: Chespin, though that's forgiven to allow all 3 Starters in the Party, and Bunnelby, who, while Normal type, evolves into a part-Ground type and uses ground-type moves; so much for Ape Shall Not Kill Ape.

But it's his third^note fourth counting Dedenne Pokemon that was the most intriguing. Clemont needed to have a powerhouse to fight against Ash. And it's not like Kalos was starved for electric types. Heck, 2 families even has Megas for him: Manectric and Ampharos. But the writers gave him a Pokemon that not only wasn't Kalos dex, it wasn't even in the revised Hoenn dex for ORAS: Luxio! Granted, Luxray was solid in gen 4, but merely matching Clemont's jumpsuit shouldn't have been enough of a reason, whether Watsonian or Doylist, for Clemont to have a Pokemon that wasn't in official circulation (i.e. the Regiondex) since its home region's generation.

Luxray getting a Mega, on the other hand, would have been a perfect justification to not just put it in the party, but to be Clemont's anchor in his battle against Ash. It would have signified that Luxray was Clemont's designated Mega in Z, just like Lucario for Korinna and Abomasnow for Wulfric.^note Abomasnow wasn't part of Wulfric's team in the Chateau, but the lineup could have been changed/expanded for Z, just like Clemont's main lineup would have been. Granted, that would have required an expansion of an already-stacked Regiondex in the same generation, and the only games that had precedent for that were Remakes or sequels. But, if it exists, then whatever flimsy reason to justify it, right? (Example: Zygarde in Sun & Moon.)

But if the programmers were able to make additional Megas like Luxray and Slowking, why didn't they add them to Sun & Moon like they added Zygarde? They didn't have to be "important". Heck, Sina having a Mega Froslass would have been just as effective in introducing Megas to Alola as Dexio's Mega Alakazam; the difference would be that Sina's Pokemon would have heralded a roster expansion, allowing the Megas that would have debuted in Z a delayed debut, in a similar, and similarly irrelevant, way to the Zygarde Cells.

So, even if it can be argued that the Zygarde Cells were intended for Z, it can also be argued that that, along with possibly giving the Kalos Starters Megas (i.e. Ash-Greninja), the cell quest was the only surviving concept from that game.

Regardless, I do agree that Zygarde deserved better. Then again, the Zygarde Cell quest could (and probably will) carry over into Generation 8's main games, whether concurrent with the plot or restricted to the postgame. At least that beats the fate that other Repeat Top-Tier Legendaries usually suffer...

---

On a side note, in my prior post, I was merely commenting that there was a better foundation for a Prequel to X & Y than a sequel, not a Remake. Kalos is, thus far, the only non-Japan region that can be revisited with a classic remake:

• When would you be returning to Unova? During N's coup, or during Ghetsis's attempt 2 years later?
• What would Lusamine's mental state be in the Alola remakes? Or would she be the amnesiac in the Poke-Pelago and Mohn the Crusading Widower (or worse)?

Actually, that sounds like a better way to go about a Gen 7 Remake, so scratch what I just said about Gen 7 not being remakeable. My point about Gen 5 stands, however; unless you'd like to try for a P.O.V. Sequel through N.^note Just make Drayden the Opelucid Gym Leader and Iris the companion of Cheren and Bianca.

Heck, with all of the hints from Dexio and Sina about them having adventures, with the past world-building I had mentioned in my prior post, it would be just as easy to make ZX/ZY into Prequels as straight-up Remakes. Heck, the answer for why there was a 50% Zygarde in X & Y may well be that the "Third Defender" had the other half,^note or at least enough cells for a 10% form, just as you can get only Reshiram in White 2/Zekrom in Black 2 with the other being completely unavailable.

Ketchum's corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced tactic is indistinguishable from blind luck.

It really doesn't. The fact that obtaining it requires a sidequest alone shows that it wasn't an afterthought.

Pokemon has had gaps before. A gap isn't an argument in your favor.

I mean Zygarde isn't special in that regard? The Zygarde Cell quest is like finding the regis, the only difference is that the game actually lets you in on it and that Zygarde isn't a native to Alola.

I never said Zygarde was releated to Alola so why does this matter?

Edited by Chariot on Jan 29th 2019 at 12:12:55 PM

They still update Eternal Flower btw.

Death is a companion. We should cherish Death as we cherish Life.

They gave it 2 Dex entries different from other Floette forms, one for US and other for UM.

That still amazes me to this day. I doubt they have many plans for it in the future, but I still find it odd they update old dex entries for something that's never been released.

And on that subject, there have always been things in pokemon that were never released but still found in the game (e.g. Azure Flute) Sometimes GF doesn't get to everything. I suspect Zygarde was to have some sort of bigger roll, but sadly it didn't get too far. It's the same as how were were supposed to get megas for pokemon like Milotic or Flygon, but that never came to be.

I assume the idea to make new Pokedex entries for Floette-E was more of a "just in case" thing, if they planned to make it important somehow. I don't actaully mean ingame, maybe they were thinking that it'll just show up in the anime or in a movie, or just for TP Ci to release it out there as is with little fanfare or reason. Maybe that last part wouldn't happen, but idk, just a thought.

Goddammit, Schezo... || *insert incredibly thirsty copypasta about Dr. Ratio*

The weird thing about Floette-E is that it's in the code for the gen 7 games, when event variants like it rarely make the jump between generations. I mean, Cosplay Pikachu didn't and she actually got released

Edited by Hylarn on Jan 30th 2019 at 7:40:17 AM

So, can I create a Doubles folder for Tier Induced Scrappy page for Pokemon?

Sure.

Where there's life, there's hope.

Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee sold 10 million in its first quarter.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."

I think that's beating ORAS launch aligned? Time for Let's Go Caterpie and Let's Go Drowzee.

Edited by Sterok on Jan 30th 2019 at 11:25:36 AM

Your preferences are not everyone else's preferences.

ORAS did 9.35 million in its first quarter.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."

It's odd that Cosplay Pikachu got abandoned when her Libre outfit is a breakout character in its own right.