During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
RIP Toriyama
This entire situation has left a pretty damn bad taste in my mouth, tbh. Because of a flawed, inaccurate EP, pages of back and forth were had, and several people have thrown up the accusation towards folks downvoting of downplaying or being insensitive to rape either on here or PMs, and it's just really bad form all around.
Looper? We all make mistakes, but this was a pretty damn massive chunk of info you missed out on here, and it's really gonna damage any further perception people have towards your effortposts if you don't rectify things like this.
As for everyone else, no, no one was downplaying rape, no one was being a rape apologist, no one was being insensitive to the topic of flipping sexual assault, and the fact that some saw fit to propose that exact idea on both the thread and personal messages is pretty damn frustrating.
I'm formally giving Lux an 'Abstain', if this proposal had been done properly and shit hadn't hit the fan then I would have been happy to upvote, but this kind of incident isn't going to get any kind of vote from me, and the accusations and reactions of some to the opinions had about a fictional character are not cool.
Edited by Ravok on Jul 9th 2020 at 10:29:31 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
Well put me down as a permabstain. This has been quite the clusterfuck.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Here’s the draft. Hopefully it covers more information than the contents in the EP:
- Tape (2020): Lux St. Seguin, real name Mark Amberzini, is a sexual predator who disguises himself as a talent agent. Running a faux talent agency, he would trick women into doing "auditions" and make empty promises to improve their careers before slowly pressuring and deceiving them into having sex with him. Once they give in, he would film themselves having sex before uploading the footage onto pornographic websites around the world against the consents of his victims. He repeats this process with his latest victims Rosa and Pearl, and when the former tries to shoot him but is unable to bring herself to do it, he proceeds to condescendingly taunt her. Ultimately, Lux is a disturbingly realistic representation for sexual exploitation in the filmmaking industry.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Please add to the Drafts.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The wifi here sucks
Also it doesn't really matter now but switching to yes on Lux.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Looking back Ravok raises a good point: do not hint that someone is being a rape apologist for down voting a Complete Monster... nowhere did the opposition say anything that can be construed as such and I'm getting flashbacks to Witch trying to scream it at everyone who downvoted their Final Fantasy villain; do not aggress the other side for voting a certain way, it makes objectively assessing what someone has written damn near impossible when such classless accusations are being thrown around by the OP. This was born of a poorly worded and non-comprehensive post that took a third party doing additional research to drag all the details out on again and resulted in an extra five pages of rage and "discussion" that could have been avoided. If you forget something in an EP that's fine but don't pretend like you got all the details and attack people as though you had all the facts right from the beginning: this should not happen again, especially since you, like many of the rest of us Looper, have downvoted stuff with little explanation and not backed it when asked, we don't have to do it on every candidate.
Well, I chose a bad time to return from my break.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Lux and Mashit
Goku Black
Guys if someone pms you accusing of something like that. Please report them to the mods. That counts as harassment which is a ban worthy offence and it's not something you should tolerate at all.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Okay, i have read more Judge Dredd material and found more candidates
What is the Work?
Judge Dredd - Lawman of the Future is a non-canon comic series published by Fleetway, which ran from 1995 to 1996 and consisted of 23 issues and one special. Aimed at a much younger audience than the original comic, Lawman of the Future made it a rule that Judge Dredd would nearly always avoid killings (aside from literally 2-3 instances, in all others he would simply knock out or stun the villains). The comic itself was based more on 1995 movie than on the original comics, but still followed the format of the original aka being told in strips, with each issue having 2-3 stories, which are ranged from 6 to 16 pages long.
I have four candidates from this comic, and before i get to Judge Death, i wanted to discuss the other three, let's start with the villain of the first 12 page story "Future Crimes" - Jonas Bleeker.
Who is Jonas Bleeker?
A rich man, who is over a hundred years old, but still looks young, Jonas has a dark secret behind his youth, he kidnapped thousands members of a small sentient alien race called Stookie, and has them grinded and slaughtered in his farm to create a stuff, that kept him young. After a while his servants started to sell some of this stuff to people, among whom was O.J. Shrimpton, whom Judge Dredd caught at the start of the issue. Seeing "Stookie drug", Judge Dredd has Shrimpton pluged into a thought machine, from which they found out about this operation. As Judge Dredd arrived to that mansion, expecting to see an old man (due to the fact that Jonas Bleeker suppose to be old already), leading to Jonas presenting himself as a "nephew" and act suprised and shocked at Dredd's words in an effort to fool the Judge, only for Dredd to see through the ruse and try to arrest jonas, leading to him ordering his robot dog to kill the Judge. Dredd easily destroys the robot dog and answers to shocked Jonas how he figured out his secret. As Dredd busts into Jonas' "farm, he is disgusted by the scene of thousands Stookies in the cage and saves one from being cut apart by Jonas' butcher, with all Stookies thanking Dredd, but saying that he arrived too late for "thousands of our brothers and sisters", leading to the Dredd saying that "all involved will pay for their crimes". As Dredd puts Bleeker into a cage, age started to "catch up" to Jonas, leading to the Judge saying that Bleeker will doubtly last the night.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
As usual, Judge Dredd standard is high, even in this comic mass murder, slavery and serial killings are VERY common and one villain (whom i'm not going to even try proposing, as he had one redeeming moment that made me reject him as a candidate) tried to unleash the radiation from the rest of the world upon Mega City One, and we don't even start talking about Judge Death, but still Jonas' unique nature of his crime and the fact that he butchered thousands and would have butchered thousands more sentient creatures simply to keep himself young and immortal (as well as his nature of one-off villain, who appeared only in one 12 page story) make him stand out.
Final Verdict?
What do you think?
The Draftsman of Doom
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
If he knows they're sapient, yes to Bleeker.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Ultimate Moral Compass
Bleeker
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He knows. All people know their sapient by the time of the story (as it was confirmed by the scientists to all Mega City One, judging by Dredd's words).
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jul 9th 2020 at 9:44:18 PM
Yes to Bleeker.
Bleeker.
to Jonas Bleeker.
I've got one candidate that I'm proposing we cut, which is the Gracewind Goatman from Do You Copy? because the game has virtually no plot. All that really happens in-game is that a hiker gets stalked by the Goatman and you have to lead him to safety with instructions without luring the Goatman to your watchtower or else he'll kill you. Pretty much the game ends with either both of you surviving, one of you dead, or both of you killed. There's no characterization to the other characters outside of the Goatman and there is hardly any progression to the plot. The endings of the game are hardly different from each other because they all end with the fact that the Goatman is still free to continue stalking and killing hikers. There's no substantial plot here and thus I think the Gracewind Goatman should be cut. What do you guys think?
Edited by DrUnknown on Jul 9th 2020 at 11:57:10 AM
Cut away.
The wifi here sucks
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Then that confirms my yes for Bleeker.
I'm fine with cutting; that seems even more cut-worthy than "Not Important".
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Gonna say to Lux/Mark, but echoing the sentiments that an EP should be complete (at least, all major details should be accounted for), and no screaming at people because we should keep our discussions civil.
Moving on, Bleeker. As for Goatman, the fact that you can beat him suggests at least a barely substantial plot, but I would like to know where the lore that the entry talks about comes from. If it is All There in the Manual, then I suppose the Goatman can be cut.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Gracewind Goatman.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
There are some newspaper clippings in the watchtower describing how the Goatman has killed dozens of other hikers, but that could hardly be considered substantial enough to create a complex plot. It's about as substantial as the backstories for the playable characters in Hatred, if not less. Also, the ability to beat the Goatman doesn't exactly constitute a substantial plot, as much as how Culture045 ends up captured in his creepypasta story.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jul 9th 2020 at 12:10:59 PM
Switching to yes on Lux then. And that is the last I am saying on the matter.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread