During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
TBH, I think Beast might have put it best. 'Sustainable plot' is a good way to look at it?
I'm considering a number of short stories I've seen proposed, and I think there's a big difference between 'villain just does evil' and a sustainable plot. And I think this is less a danger in an officially edited, published work
Torture and murder is so baked into the Creepypasta medium as a whole. We have general rules on the baseline standard, which is why we're not putting up every horror villain and slasher under the sun. We should start applying that there. But I think this is gonna need to be a two-way street. People proposing have to be careful about what they're putting up.
Edited by Lightysnake on May 31st 2020 at 3:51:35 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
And hell, sustainable plot doesn't mean lack of nasty stuff. Look at Helen Valentine: The stories contain much Body Horror and other sick shit, but there's PLENTY of substantive story there.
Or...well, much of Garth Ennis's work ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
There's some gory shit there, but the man can also write REALLY, REALLY well when he wants.
Agreed. I think length is less of an issue, and it avoids asking "what's the point of the work."
I've put up a lot of short story villains, as have others that I'll go to the mat defending, but in this case, "does it have a sustainable plot" would be a good rule to go with. A Creepypasta can meet that rule, but for obvious reasons, there are many that won't.
Edited by Lightysnake on May 31st 2020 at 3:58:32 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
And as for length...we have MANY comic baddies up that are from only a single issue (hell, my own Cossack), but said issue has enough of a plot that they can count.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Agreed, for whatever pruning has to happen, I 1000% back you buddy.
I like the "sustainable plot" idea, but I think people will inevitably have different ideas on what that means.
Kind of one potential test? "How long can I talk about the work before I get to the villain's evil deeds?"
The teddy bear story? "The kid sees ghosts and then gets tortured and murdered by a teddy bear who's killed others" is...a tougher sell than, as ACW brought up, Valentine, which focuses on the atmosphere of the town of Bacio and the dawning wrongness of the place, before Helen Valentine's deeds are revealed at the end.
Or Yours Truly, Jack the Ripper where the story is focused upon investigating the Ripper via the leads until the final twist. It's not entirely perfect, as I can think o some stories intrinsically linked to the villain's deeds, but for internet horror...
But everything on this thread is occasionally subject to interpretation: Heinousness, redeeming features, etc.
Edited by Lightysnake on May 31st 2020 at 4:02:36 AM
I think a good "how bleak before its just bad stuff happening" point as well is Scraggle's The 13th Artifact. The planet is suffering underneath the villain and when confronting him the protagonist has no hope of winning but she pulls a Heroic Sacrifice to die before he can read her mind so he won't ravage Earth with his army of demons. He's a damn juggernaut of evil but her getting that moment of clever thinking and taking that dark action at least throw some hope so it's not just "Bad shit happens TM".
Lizzid people!
That is also pretty valid.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
And Valentine Man focuses on Bruno trying to adapt with Henri before stopping Helen, while Children of Valentine is also extremely substantive (notably with Vittoria).
But yes, what Lighty said: That's why this trope will ALWAYS be YMMV. I remember awhile back there was talk of it not being YMMV...that'll never happen.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
That too. Hell, Children probably has one of the more (relatively) happy endings in Neverkind.
Edited by ACW on May 31st 2020 at 7:10:24 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Another thing saving Valentine is that it's connected to a much larger setting where the heroes frequently do fight back and win.
Yeah. I don't want to make it sound like we're being quality police on it, but I think we do need to do some level of control on what we deem fit for analysis.
Exactly, if you just wanna flex how bad your villain can be... it'll probably be a bad story but that's secondary to the point it doesn't constitute enough of a plot to merit bringing up here.
The Draftsman of Doom
I think it helps, in addition to substantial plot, to have a reason why you made the villain so nasty, such as making social commentary, or even just to ensure audience sympathy stays squarely on the side of the angels; within the acceptable confines of the genre, of course.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 31st 2020 at 7:20:31 AM
Feels good, don't it?
I didn't want to be the first person to bring it up, but this has been bothering me for ages.
Gotta cut what we gotta cut.
Agreed. Can we get up any that might have these issues? Bloody Mary is one, I honestly do think with all this,Day of the Choosing has issues, too.
I have felt that way for a long long time now.
Lizzid people!
I mean, the issue with the story there kind of goes with what 43 said that it ultimately amounts to the good guy losing, the bad guy winning, etc. Besides it being written as part of an inside joke.
We should not be writing things to go up for the memes. That's an attitude that only promotes insulation
Lizzid people!
No, I agree. I'm just saying that it was an issue that was raised about it, but nothing came from it.
I'm just saying if it comes up, I'll evaluate on merits regardless of why it's written, but I want to discourage that.
Lizzid people!
Certainly.
I am excluding "Novel Length" stories and series I am aware of (Borrasca and Pen Pal, for example, or stories that I already know has a sustainable plot since I previously read them.
So far I looked at
Edited by Beast on May 31st 2020 at 5:44:35 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."