During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Refua Shlema, Lighty. Looking forward to that EP.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Also, I wanted to make a couple changes to the Digimon page. Is that okay?
The V-Tamer Daemon leaves out a couple of his worst crimes, the big one being eating his own son Arcadiamon. That WOULD just be a Kick The Son Of A Bitch moment except he calls Arcadiamon his child at least once.
Second, the Millenniumon entry leaves out what he does to the Adventure kids, especially Tai.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Yamamota and Emperor
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Let's see the revised entries.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Empera and Yamamoto. Also a late yes to Lucifer.
Get well Lighty.
Anyway its been 2 weeks since the free version of a podcast I have been listening to ended its second season and there are some characters worth talking about:
What is the work?
Wolverine is a joint work between Marvel and Stitcher to bring Marvel's favorite mutant Canuck to the world of podcasting. The first season is set in Alaska, where Wolverine is being hunted by Weapon X and has to deal with a deadly serial killer. The second season sees him still on the run, now in Louisiana, looking for his old friend who has disappeared, along with other people around New Orleans, kidnapped by a mysterious mutant.
Who is Jason Wyngarde? What has he done?
Jason Wyngarde AKA Mastermind is a mutant that was kidnapped by the Weapon X Program, in their program designed to make mutants into weapons for the government. In the program was another mutant named Maureen and of course Logan.
Maureen designed a helmet that greatly increased Wyngarde's illusion powers, allowing the trio to escape. However, Wyngarde decides Logan is too beastly to be allowed to be free and uses his powers to incapacitate Wolverine, so Weapon X can recapture him, escaping with Maureen.
Years later, Wyngarde is using his powers to mind control people and turn them into zombies, forcing them to leave their homes and follow him, around the New Orleans area. Wyngrade has mind-controlled and kidnapped dozens to hundreds of people, taking them from their homes to a community called Green Haven, including Maureen and the mother of a teenager named Marcus Baptiste.
Marcus tags along with Logan who is searching for Wyngarde and Maureen, wanting to find his mom. Wyngarde bills Green Haven as a community where humans and mutants get along and live in peace, but in reality, everyone there is his mind-controlled puppet and he turns the humans into serfs for the mutants.
Wolverine and Marcus find Green Haven, but Wyngarde instantly mind controls Marcus. Logan is harder to break, so Wyngarde uses his illusion powers to put him in a dungeon and make him think he will be drowned if he does not serve Wyngarde.
Wolverine is saved, by Sally Pierce, a humanoid Sentinel, who warns that Weapon X is intent on capturing all the escaped mutants and is sending an army of Sentinels to Green Haven to capture the escaped mutants and kill everyone in their path. Peirce claims she wants to save innocent lives, but wants Wolverine to return to Weapon X, which he agrees to if Pierce lets Maureen go free and lets him deal with Wyngarde. Pierce agrees to the terms.
Wyngarde knows the Sentinels are coming, but has no intention of giving up his fiefdom, he intends to have his mind-controlled puppets fight the Sentinels down to the last man, not caring if everyone dies in the process, be they mutant or human. Wyngarde also plans to use a machine that extends his powers and let him mind control most of the US, if not the world.
Pierce gave Wolverine a serum that lets him resist Wyngarde's powers, however, Wolverine's healing factor soon purges it from his body, allowing Wyngarde to mentally torture Wolverine, making him think his bones are breaking. Wolverine presses on through sheer will power, despite the horrific illusions Wyngarde casts (including Wolverine drowning in the blood of his loved ones. Wolverine reaches Wyngarde and lobotomized him.
Pierce and Maureen successfully shut down the Sentinel army and Pierce collects Logan so that he can meet the one in charge of the Sentinels and the real architect of his misfortunes......
Is he heinous of the standards of the story?
I think so, the first season has a serial killer named Hudson Langrock (who does not count for various reasons), but Mastermind was kidnapping dozens, if not hundreds of people, forcing them to become his servants and was willing to let them all die to protect his fiefdom and wants to mind control more people, possibly most of the US, if not the world. The sadistic illusions he subjects Wolverine to are pretty nasty.
There is a slimy Anti Mutant activist named Bonnie Roach who wants to burn Green Haven to the ground and has a habit of feeding people to her pet alligators, but she is killed off before she can reach Green Haven, so she may not meet the heinous standard for this series.
Of course, there is the one who sent the sentinels in the first place, that will be my next proposal.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
Nah.
Sure he was captured by Weapon X and was experimented on, but so was Wolverine and he is not evil like Wyngarde is.
Wyngarde claims he is fighting for a better future for mutants, but his cruel treatment of Wolverine and willingness to let the mutants of Green Haven die says otherwise. He is even willing to let Maureen die, despite the fact her work is what gave him his power increase in the first place.
Final Verdict?
I think I will say yes to this malicious Mastermind.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 16th 2019 at 7:27:32 AM
I liked Spinel. She was written genuinely sympathetic. Going into the film I thought she was going to be that one irredeemable antagonist due to just how cliched it has gotten at this point but that wasn't the case which I am glad because Spinel's tragedy is actually real tragedy that doesn't conflict with her character but actually develops it.
At this point we really shouldn't be expecting any candidates. Rebecca Sugar is committed to her stance of making every antagonist morally grey, and even if she didn't the heinous standard is pretty jacked up either way.
I thought sharks were my friends.
Yay to Jason.
RIP KissAnime.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
To Mastermind.
And @Username. Again, the standard isn't really that bad, the only Charachters who've done anything that crosses Baseline are the Diamonds and Spinel.
I agree it's a bit unlikely anyone will count in the future though. Unless they(Hopefully) pull a Spades king on us.
Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 16th 2019 at 4:00:25 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
The major thing about SU's standard, Kylo, is that the show is attempting to treat the Diamonds sympathetically after the "holy shit" litany of things they're responsible for (their awful caste system where it's "fit the mold or die," multiple cases of genocide, unleashing the Corruption wave, the fusion experiments). Nobody is expecting anyone to struggle against Aquamarine or Jasper, but when you've already redeemed villains with the laundry list of atrocities the Diamonds have, that reflects very, very, very badly on prospects for future candidates—never mind the concept that anyone could really ever be "pure evil" in the setting to begin with being laughable after Word of God statements and how committed they've been to that.
So, yes, the chances of Steven Universe getting a qualifier at this point might as well be a negative percentage. But I digress.
Yes to Mastermind. Was waiting for that one.
Edited by Scraggle on Sep 16th 2019 at 5:10:00 AM
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Mastermind.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to Yamamoto, Empera, and the Mastermind.
Mastermind.
Well not every story needs to have a Complete Monster in it, they may not fit with every story and the aims of the storytellers, I personally like a rogues gallery that is balanced between really sympathetic and really evil villains, but that is just me.
I think Spinel works fine as a sympathetic villain, I think its the Diamonds people have problems with.
I thought sharks were my friends.
I remember while lurking the forums the past year, I stumbled on a post that said something along the lines of, "A Complete Monster is not a Badge of Honor and doesn't make your work any better." And I'm inclined to agree. Just compare Infinity Train with Hatred.
RIP KissAnime.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Oh trust me, I'm well aware that it's VERY unlikely the show will have a Keep in the future. I'm just saying the Standard isn't as screwed up as some are making it out to be as the diamonds all have high amounts of recources.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I acknowledged that earlier, she's the only one who does something really bad though, even then she needed a powerful machine to even attempt anything. Also, your really overselling the brainwashing thing
For the sake of The Thread staying on topic if anyone wants to talk about SU some more please PM me.
Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 16th 2019 at 4:42:36 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Yeah and the fact that Spinel who not only isn't a Diamond but wasn't even intended to being a fighting Gem in the first place has attempted genocide, as well as some nasty brainwashing on her rapsheet kind of disproves your statement of needing to be a powerful Gem to go past the baseline.
I thought sharks were my friends.
Okay, this is going off topic now, guys.
RIP KissAnime.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
agreed.
to Mastermind
The Draftsman of Doom
Mastermind.
As far as I’m concerned, Tropes Are Tools. If I were to write characters with the intent that they ended up effortposted by others in this thread, there would likely be a reason I wrote them so diabolical; two likely reasons I would write characters with this trope in mind is because a) I want to make their downfall that much more satisfying, or b) despite any complexity they may have, I wish to point out how much their cruelty overshadows any relatability with regards to motives (i.e. feeling powerless, being insecure).
If and when I do finish my first script (Which I shall call Priceless), ~ACW has first dibs on any possible candidates from said script. He will be the first to know when the script is completed. As of right now, I have a good 10 scenes worth of dialogue or so, plus actions listed in parentheses. I also have an idea for a script called Extreme Prejudice (2024).
The details of the plots for these scripts shall remain confidential until I complete each work. Until then, wish me luck.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to the Mastermind
As far as my stance on this trope goes. I agree, Complete Monster itself is not a badge of honor and it's like other trope tools for storytelling. If you pull your cards right for CM trope, you will have a fascinating villain (Hello Mothergod and Frollo) but if you pull your cards wrong, yeah... And I pretty much agree that not all works need a CM to succeed as there are some good works that I watched without any C Ms in it.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Looks like I should have just kept my mouth shut about that movie.
And yes to Mastermind. Between this and his anime incarnation he seems to be a good target for Adaptational Villainy.
Edited by FriedWarthog on Sep 16th 2019 at 5:01:31 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
you didn't do anything Wrong Fried, someone had to talk about it, and thankfully the Conversation didn't get that out of hand.
Darkwing Goose
Mastermind
Get well soon Lighty