During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, new rule: For child-friendly works, don't bring it up. If someone DOES happen to come up who may count (Tirek, Dark Princess), then wait 2 weeks and do the effortpost then.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I think the fair discretion should apply. Don't bring up Mary Poppins or Dora the Explorer or Captain Underpants unprompted. Just don't.
I may have another EP from Redwall, surprisingly, but given the surprising amount of death in that series, that's hardly the same thing.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 11th 2019 at 12:19:34 PM
Goku Black
Huh now I'm curious?
I thought we drained that series dry with near every villain discussed.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Oh, I was making some reservations on the the To-Do list, and I completely missed that Lightysnake reserved discussion on Warburg Tantavul just a few days before I did my EP on him. I'm can't believe I missed that, and I just want to apologize for accidentally taking Lightysnake's candidate away from him.
In the future, I'll make sure to look extra hard on the "To-Do" page before I make any future effort posts, and try my best to avoid such a thing from happening in the future.
Don't apologize. You did terrific and explained full well why he doesn't count, chase.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@miraculous Me need to do an EP from Video Games or Visual Novel genres after seeing Providence which would be a hard—hard case. Unless if someone recommends me one, I'll be happy to cover that.
Also, gotta add some entries that I took care of yesterday to the drafts.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jan 11th 2019 at 4:46:13 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lizzid people!
On an unrelated note, seems that When They Cry has an official third entry in the making called Ciconia: When They Cry. That's up for grabs for anyone (mostly since the synopsis of it isn't really my cup of tea).
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Austin DR Hmmmm... I may or may not reserve it at a later time. Although the problem would lie on the same continuity so yeah...
@ACW Also, added the revised VIRM entry on the drafts. Yes it's long ACW, but I think it can't be done justice with anything shorter due to the rapsheet that the VIRM commits in the span of 24 episodes
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jan 11th 2019 at 5:50:13 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Current mood: sick of your shit
Alright, so here is the second part of that Fran Bow duo from before. I've been debating with myself on this one for a while, but here goes.
The work: Fran Bow is a point-and-click style adventure horror game following the titular ten-year-old protagonist as she searches for answers on who killed her parents.
The villain: Remor, the Prince of Darkness, the Terrible Black. He is one of the two main antagonists of the game and is responsible for the deaths of not only Fran's parents, but the torment of many, many more.
Who is Remor? What has he done? Remor is the son of Mother Mabuka, the queen of all evil and ruler of the Fifth Reality. Remor is the leader of a dark race of beings called Kamalas, which feed on pain and suffering on both physical and emotional levels. For hundreds of years, Remor led his feral minions in wars and raids on the peaceful realm of Ithersta, wrecking havoc and bringing wickedness to a world without evil. He also ruled over the Kamalas in the human world, who lingered around people (especially children) with physical or mental pain and tormented them, feeding off of their suffering.
Eventually, Remor was contacted by Dr. Oswald Harrison, who wanted Fran Bow as a test subject. Remor agreed and possessed Fran, forcing her to ritualistically murder and dismember her parents before allowing her to be captured by Harrison's minions and taken to his asylum. Once Fran was there, Remor acted like a sadistic guard, stalking and tormenting Fran to force her to stay there. Whenever Fran does try to escape, he uses magic to damage her mind and cause her to pass out, allowing the doctors to recapture her. However, one day, she uses new tools and the unseen aid of one of her friends to escape. Though Remor attacks the girl several times; he is chased away by her friend's magic.
After escaping both the asylum and the vengeful spirits of Clara and Mia Buhalmet, Fran comes across a bridge. Remor attacks her and her cat Mr. Midnight on the bridge, destroying it so the girl may fall to her death. Bothe survive by being transported to Ithersta, but Remor sends his Kamalas to torment the girl and encourage her to commit suicide, while also sending some to attack and seriously wound the doctor of Ithersta who helped her.
Fran ends up getting help from Ithersta's Wizard and King to get back to the human world, where she eventually gets help from her asylum doctor, Marcel Deerne, into figuring out the mysteries behind her parents' murders. However, just as they are discovering what is going on, Remor finds them and attacks, mentally damaging them and forcing them to pass out, before delivering them to Harrison. Fran gets loose and searches for a way out, and eventually comes across Remor, who explains that he enjoys feeding from her suffering, and even reveals to her a vision of her killing her parents just to force her to watch and convince her to kill herself. Fran doesn't (she goes on to confront Harrison and subsequently be shot), but Remor is left undefeated when Fran is taken to a sanctuary where she will be safe.
Mitigating Factors? Remor is the son of the ruler of darkness, so he is inherently a dark being. He does show that he knows the difference between good and evil, but just hates good and is repulsed by it.
Remor also feeds off of pain and suffering, perhaps meaning that he needs it. However, he does clearly state that he enjoys it, and even tells Fran at one point that she is "the manifestation of his desires" and "he can do whatever he wants" with her, showing that he is torturing her beyond what he "needs" to survive.
Heinous Standard? Remor is one of the most overarching evils in the game, being not only responsible for Fran's suffering and trying to kill her several times, but is also the leader of the beings that torment humans as a lifestyle. His mother Mabuka, is evil but honorable, and the rest are tragic figures or minor obstacles. The one exception is Dr. Harrison, who was previously accepted for his horrific experiments and the one that brought Remor into the picture in the first place.
Verdict? A little iffy considering what the mitigating factors could be, but leaning towards ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
as he goes beyond what he needs to do just because he loves doing it and likes to see good things suffer.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Dunno, it seems a case of Always Chaotic Evil, his species do have a taboo or anything that he brokes to show him being extra evil even compared to the regular badness? Thought his mother have some honor...there other members of his species in the Tragic Villain gallery? If there enought, maybe...
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 11th 2019 at 5:56:05 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Current mood: sick of your shit
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Considering he's the only one of his species, I don't know.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Then nay. Sorry 
But for what i've read ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. It saddens me because damn dude sounds hateable.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 11th 2019 at 5:55:58 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Carrot Clone
Today, I finally become an adult by turning 21 years old. Happy B-Day to me. Now let's celebrate that by EPing a shitty movie.
What Is the Work?
Hellmaster is a film released in 1992.
Shelly and friends are regular college students who have to face off against an evil college professor who has used the students as guinea pigs, turning them into mutated freaks who attack on command and ride around in a Christian bus to kill people. But most of the movie takes place in the dark depths of the school, so good luck having fun watching this dull film.
Who Is he?
Professor Jones is the Social Darwinist main villain of the movie who plans to become a god by creating mutated gory killers from innocent humans, thus proving to people that god is dead. He can also give people hallucinations via shots because apparently he’s Scarecrow.
What has he done?
Originally claiming to be curing the homeless of their desperate plight, he presents them a drug called “The Reward” that is able to enhance intelligence by giving one telepathic abilities, but only the strong can handle it. Jones takes these homeless people to his base, where out of the many who took it, only four survived. The four became genetically deformed, brutal slaves for Jones, who will soon do the same to more homeless people. With these slaves, Jones formed an army that does whatever he tells them to do, using them to threaten a reporter, Robert, with more deaths should he tell the police, and even shows him that he’s killed Robert’s wife Andrea. Soon Jones decides to do the same with college students, but when that failed, he killed them and used telepathic illusion to escape custody, burning the bodies as a way to cover his tracks.
Returning 20 years later, Jones decides to once again use college students as guinea pigs (from the same college no less), turning his second-in-command Damon into a mutant. He has his army of the homeless massacre plenty of people on their Christian happy bus, including two helpful cops. More students are killed inside the college by the mutants. He later on tries to turn the handicapped Joel into one of his slaves by promising to cure him of his disabilities, which he later does. He decides to kidnap Blonde (I don’t know what her name is, and it doesn’t matter anyway) in order to make her his bride, hoping to have her give birth to his new mutant creatures. Once she slaps him, he mocks her dead boyfriend (which his mutants killed), and leaves her for “the lesser”. He then tries to turn Shelly into one of his mutants, but that fails. Shelly is then given powers to invade one’s mind (because of course) by using the Reward on herself, and kills Jones... only for him to reveal that he used his psychic powers to make a double and tries to kill Drake, Shelly’s friend, with his own handgun. Shelly then injects Jones with one of his own mutant shots that causes him to die by witnessing himself burning in flames. It’s supposed to be his biggest fear, which I guess means he burns in real life? What a dumb fucking movie.
Redeeming Qualities?
He lets some people live, but that’s mainly because he sees them as so “weak” that they can’t harm him. After all, why bother killing people if they aren’t posing a threat? He also claims that people kill other people for an imaginary god, so why shouldn’t he; which is just a dumb excuse meant to hide his egomaniacal personality.
As for his mutants, he has them see him as their creator/father, but he doesn't share any love for them at all, seeing them as slaves.
Heinousness?
No other villain surpasses him in evilness.
Conclusion
I think he’s a keep.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Jan 11th 2019 at 3:38:56 AM
"It doesn't matter anymore. You win. It is Duck Season."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
JONES!!!!!!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to Jones! Abstain on Remor but edged on just yeah...
Also, HBD Jackie!!!! ![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
If he's the only member of his species it can't be decided if he has agency or not...so.. to Remor Becuase from what I understand there's a rule against just assuming someone lacks agency.
Also To Jones.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 11th 2019 at 3:54:28 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Current mood: sick of your shit
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, and happy b-day!
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Remor, Jones, Melanie and Gustav
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Okay I just looked up the game again for this, even discarding this there's the "Work needs to tell us he lacks agency" rule. But even then I think this would be worth bringing up. I found it on the main page.
Affably Evil: Mother Mabuka (the Queen of Darkness, leader of the Kamalas, and Remor's mother) is very courteous and polite to Fran even though the girl had intruded into her Den and forcibly woke her up with an alarm that is explicitly said to be something she hates.
This lends to the idea Remor goes beyond what he needs to do.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 11th 2019 at 4:02:32 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Remor and Jones.
Lighty, let's see that Redwall EP!
So.....anyone got an ep?
Edited by miraculous on Jan 11th 2019 at 12:11:26 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."