During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I'd say keep Bravely Default on the FF page, but I'm ambivalent about Octopath. It's a Spiritual Successor of a Spiritual Successor, so I wouldn't mind them cut from the actual page given the link is kind of tenuous by this point.
So, in the vein of Inhumanoids and Chuck Norris: Karate Kommandos... I got us another surprise 80s animated candidate.
What's the setting?
Sectaurs was an 80s miniseries, five episodes like Karate Kommandos, telling a Merchandise-Driven story about a futuristic planet called Symbion, whose native residents were mutated into insect-like humanoids called the Sectaurs, who ride on insectoid mounts. There are two realms, the Shining Realm and the Dark Domain, constantly at war to find the "Hyve of the Ancients," whose walls contain the secret to ultimate power. Leading the Shining Realm is the noble Prince Dargon... and his main enemy is the tyrannical General Spidrax, in a promotion to Big Bad in place of Empress Devora in the Marvel Comic that ran concurrently.
Who is General Spidrax? What has he done?
Spidrax, the cruel, arachnidian ruler of the Dark Domain who rides astrid a chained monstrosity called the Spider-Flyer, is the arch-enemy of Dargon and the Shining Realm itself. Engaging in the classic 80s animated villain pastimes of angrily screeching the hero's name in a threateningly deep voice, Spidrax seeks nothing but power, seeking the Hyve of the Ancients. With it and the knowledge it possesses, Spidrax would destroy the entire Shining Realm, gleefully seeing it and its people die for the sake of ruling all Symbion, to "destroy all to rule all" as the opening puts it. Spidrax? Proves he's not just talk when he has orders a village and its inhabitants razed and slaughtered in the opening scene of the series, as a simple distraction for the good guys while his forces raid the castle for the map to the Hyve. The villagers are saved from being slaughtered by Spidrax and his forces, but Spidrax gets away with what he wants, and begins his march to the Hyve.
Spidrax, throughout the series? Engages in as many nasty plots as you would expect from him. He traffics in slaves for his journey to the Hyve, threatening to make the unimpressive seller among them as well... when two of Dargon's friends are delivered to him? Spidrax eagerly plans to work them to death to spite Dargon. In the third episodes, Spidrax has a corrupt ex-magistrate try and lead the heroes to their doom at the hands of a serpentine monster, nearly leading to another village destroyed in the process, while Spidrax personally tries to feed one of his captured heroes to another monster. In the fourth episode, Spidrax meets with the nasty, mass-murdering bandit Crawla... and promptly out-evils him on the spot, cajoling him and his men into his service under pain of death and trying various other nasty ways to kill the heroes with him.
In the fifth, and what would be the final episode? Spidrax forcibly conscripts another entity named the Shadow Master and forces him to attack the heroes... and when he seemingly kills Dargon? Spidrax laughs, compliments him on his "good job," then promptly orders him tossed to his death after Dargon as reward for his service. Spidrax and Dargon end up clashing their forces with one final battle at the Hyve itself, which ends with Spidrax escaping and leaving Dargon to be buried alive by the collapsing Hyve. Dargon escapes... sadly, Spidrax never gets his comeuppance.
Any mitigating factors?
None with Spidrax himself. Personality-wise, he's every 80s Merchandise-Driven cartoon villain you can imagine... now, in terms of deeds and the story's actual tone? While Sectaurs never reached the insane levels of horror in contemporary cartoon Inhumanoids, it was a lot darker than the norm than most other cartoons at the time, freely averting Never Say "Die" to scoot around censorship placed on the actual violence... and featuring, in a scene that's actually kind of shocking for the era, the somber tale of the fortress that was explicitly and utterly massacred by Crawla, with no survivors sans the hero who witnessed it — who was then horribly tortured by Crawla and left for dead by him. Pretty freaking grim for an action miniseries for kids in the time when cartoon censorship was still pretty heavy and the Animation Age Ghetto was in full force.
Spidrax? With the Never Say "Die" ruled abandoned with him? There's no taming of what he's trying to do. Spidrax's end goal is the annihilation of what amounts to half of the entire world, with slavery, regular Bad Boss behavior, and some pretty spiteful and awful ways to kill the heroes that exceeds the usual cliche death traps and "destroy him" stuff. The one-shots were all nasty in their own right, but all of them are in Spidrax's pocket by the end and he thoroughly sets the standard above everyone.
Conclusion?
Keeper. Not an extraordinary keeper by the standards of some of today's cartoons, but for the 80s, and even nowadays? Spidrax sticks out. I wasn't expecting a potential from this character, but that's what you get.
Thoughts?
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 19th 2018 at 7:41:50 AM
And a yes.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Spidrax has my vote.
By the way, although I doubt it will make much (if any) difference, Shadow Weaver's attempted body count was around 7.
Goku Black
Spidrax
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
For a fantasy series. Thats really low by genre standards.
Messenger from another dimension.
I actually might have TWO potential AC Odyssey candidates but I will start with first;
Who is Chrysis?
She is the hight priestess of Hera and member of Cult of Cosmos.
What does she do?
She kidnaps babies from parents and tortures them into insanity to make them become loyal members of the Cult of Cosmos. Among those kids happened to be your baby brother (or sister depending on whom you chose to play as) Alexios. When she is introduced, we see her trying to prevent other priest from healing sick patients, claiming that their fates are in Hera's hands. You later meet a kind priest who had his tongue cut out by her to prevent you from finding out anything. Later, when you track Chrysis down and confront her, she is with another baby and she sets the house on fire to escape from you. You have a choice to chase her or save the baby. I saved the baby and later she murders an innocent man to set a trap for you. You kill her.
Mitigating factors
Previously, another user didn't want to EP her due to Moral Agency issues. Yes, she claims that she tortures babies "to prepare them for the cruel world that is full of suffering." However, I can't see that as redeeming seeing the sadism she actually shows constantly and her character description in-game even says "she might have love those babies in her own twisted way, but that love is forever gone now." Combine that with constant display of self-preservation and I don't think it is redeeming.
Heinous?
Now I think this is a much bigger concern and one that actually (and unfortunately) might disqualify her. We have lots of thugs in the game who constantly threaten children. In one mission, two thugs threaten to murder parents's kids if they don't pay them back. We have another cult of Cosmos member who wants to bring Greece into civil war so he would profit from this war. We have your own father who tried to murder both his kids. This is very tricky.
Verdict?
I don't think Moral Agency is the issue here. If she is disqualified, it would be due to heinous standard and still I think mass torturing of babies might barely put her over the edge. Thoughts?
Edited by emperors on Dec 19th 2018 at 7:04:28 AM
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Abstaining on Cosmos. Then again, how do those thugs' level of resources compare to hers?
Messenger from another dimension.
Well, they have swords and armors. I would not say they have less or more; just different. She is a priestess and they are armored thugs. Different resources.
Edited by emperors on Dec 19th 2018 at 7:10:47 AM
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
I'm... going to admit here. Unless something's being stretched in the EP, "serial baby torturer" is maybe one of the single most repugnant niches one could specialize in. And I think trying to burn one alive counts to pushing her, too.
Can't believe I'm saying this for the increasingly oversaturated AC series, but sounds like an easy keeper.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Spydrax and Chrysis
Yes to the last two.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Spidrax (voiced by Arthur "Destro" Burghardt). Man, Crawla seems rather nasty himself, if not for him getting out-heinoused.
EDIT: Yes to Chrysis too.
I've requested the move of the Octopath sextet.
Edited by ACW on Dec 19th 2018 at 10:25:03 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
She kidnaps babies from parents and tortures them into insanity to make them become loyal members of the Cult of Cosmos.
Yeah I think I made my decision there. (I did read the rest of it though)
Chrysis
On second thought, to Chrysis!
Sure there.
Joker, Spydrax, and Chrysis. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Shadow Weaver. And I agree the Bravely examples should stay on the Final Fantasy page but the Octopath ones should be moved to the general video game page.
Wild Child
Spidrax and Chrysis.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Joker, Spydrax, and Chrysis.
No to Shadow Weaver, for now. I will say that though its a franchise aimed at young girls, She-Ra is more likely to have a CM then MLP. If someone made a She-Ra fan fic where Hordak or Shadow Weaver are monsters, I think people here would be fine with it (making Catra a CM would be odd though).
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yes to Joker, Spydax and Chrysis and for Chrysis... vomits
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
another Joker
Spidrax
Chrysis.
Scraggle, can we please get some clarity on the Bravely and Octopath keepers (whether stay at the Final Fantasy page or move to the main video games page)?
Edited by ACW on Dec 19th 2018 at 8:51:19 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts