Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@MenInGreyBlak: I recall Piper trying to kill her half-sister in front of her own mother, before attempting to kill her mother afterwards. That's a personal and spiteful enough reason for her to stay, along with her bodycount.

edited 23rd May '18 8:39:46 AM by Tyk5919

Oh, well then, works for me.

@Tyk 5919 Thanks.

I doubt it's an actual "problem" to anyone in this thread, especially since being sceptical about examples on this thread who have been on the trope for a long time is productive, just look at how many recent cuts that have happened of old CM's.

Also, isn't me being sceptical a good thing? Wouldn't it be very weird if I suddenly started ignoring examples which I feel are candidates for cutting? Just because I do it "often" doesn't mean that it isn't necessary. As a side note on that, what users have previously complained about was that I said in "measly" paragraphs that I wanted to discuss a character rather than actually effort posting, which I don't even do anymore.

Move on.

edited 23rd May '18 8:57:51 AM by MenInGreyToBlak

It is a problem if that skepticism is founded on evidence that's been debunked before and more so when these challenges are so annoyingly indirect. If you want to challenge a candidate, don't tap dance around it, bring up a thorough argument for cutting instead of "maybe we should X" or "I'm not saying we should cut but X".

As a side note, ACW, could we permanently drop this "I have an issue with X" or "I'm concerned about X" or so-and-so? This is far from the first time this has come up and it always ends up looking like you nudging the thread toward challenging a settled character because of bias.

If you have a genuine argument with new evidence, bring it up and be straightforward about it. If not? Don't bring it up in any capacity, please. That goes double for the numerous times you've done the same thing with Dowling.

edited 23rd May '18 8:55:44 AM by Scraggle

Acw, I uh dont want to start sometging but you need to let things go sometimes.

You PM'd me once asking whether Utrom Shredder loved Karai, despite Overlord the guy who proposed already telling you a few times that he didn't and even his entry mentions he strikes her and than goes all Omnicidial Maniac. You also PM'd me about Claude Morton despite scraggle doing an EP on that.

Just tone it down man. Not every question needs to be asked.

Switching on no to Draculon.

Okee dokee...I finished a cartoon that I recently watched and I would love to propose a candidate in here...However, I'm still unsure if he makes it as he seems rather generic...However, his master plan is rather....Horrible IMO by sending a missile to Mount Ararat that could melt a glacier and causing a catastrophic flood. That's not even saying the fact that there is a scene where the protagonist checking a simulation that show the lethal consequences of what will happen if the master plan succeeded. But I'm still unsure if he fits to this trope or not.

And yes, the character I'm talking about is Dr. Gunnar Maelstrom from Carmen Sandiego. I'm okay with EP him but I'll think about it later.

edited 23rd May '18 9:17:24 AM by ElfenLiedFan90

Hmm, not the type of work I'd think would have someone, but if the consequences are made explicit, he may indeed count. That would make another CM for Tim Curry.

Are we talking explicit mass death here (as in aversions of Never Say "Die" and mentions of potential human casualties)? If the scope of his plan is destructive enough and they're not tap dancing around the death that would result, I'd encourage a post.

edited 23rd May '18 9:19:32 AM by Scraggle

I probably dont think this is enough for him to count but if I recall correctly. After seeing the simulation of Maelstrom's master plan, Carmen said about a flood like that would cause an environmental disaster. But I think it isnt enough so yeah...I just drop it anyway

hey. is it possible to remove jack noir from the webcomics section? i have reasons for wanting to remove him, as i don’t believe he fits the criteria, but i’ll only elaborate on them if this is indeed the right place to suggest this cut and you haven’t already come to a consensus about letting him stay there. thanks!

edited 23rd May '18 9:42:49 AM by atiredonnie

This is the right place to suggest it, and he was approved, but if you've got evidence that hasn't been heard before, go for it.

On Battle Tech / YMMV page I found those entries:

• Complete Monster:
  • Chronologically speaking, first there's Stefan Amaris, the Usurper. He's the lovely bundle of joy who overthrew the Star League, executed everyone in the Star League Court, killed everyone in the Vatican before burning the place down, and a whole laundry list of deeds including genocide and sterilizing planets.
  • Katherine Steiner-Davion was arguably a fine politician when first presented, but a combination of author fiat and other factors led up to the revelation that she'd hired an assassin to kill her own mother, her brother, her other brother's girlfriend, and her own boyfriend. All for political gain. After the rest of humanity started catching on to her game, she became the focal point of a civil war that wrecked both of the nations she ruled, sold out the nation she had the most loyalty with to the Clans (in an attempt to kill her brother and some mercenary outfits that weren't on her team) and finally - after being deposed - escaped with her Clan allies and created a test tube baby with her rival brother's DNA and her own who would hopefully go on to cause more havok in the Inner Sphere at a later date. Even her aforementioned son couldn't take it. He ends up killing her himself after she advocates murdering an ally, to protect her own position. Especially since maintaining her position may get him and his Clan destroyed.
  • An even earlier example is Star League General Amos Forlough, who helped conquer the Periphery during the Reunification War. While his actions against the Taurian Concordat, which included saturation level orbital bombardment and WMD deployment, may have been justified due to the fact that they were doing the same things; his actions on the Outworlds Alliance front went way too far. The Alliance barely had a regular military and so they used irregular militia to fight back with bombings and sniper attacks against his troops. He responded by killing 10% of the population of every planet that resisted (roughly 12 million people across the Outworlds), left many more without homes or shelter and sentenced his own subordinates to death and hard labor if they refused to carry out these atrocities. Little wonder why he is known as "The Butcher" and "The Baby Killer". The worst part is that he was never brought to justice and received some of the Star League's highest rewards for the victories he achieved.

Only Steiner-Davion's entry is more or less well done. The rest are bad. Should we cut them?

alright!

so, tell me if this already been cleared up, but i don’t think jack noir fits the criteria because he isn’t just a beacon of malignant evil. correct me if im wrong, but part of the requirement to be considered a complete monster is that they cannot have had affection for anyone. jack noir was canonly in love with PM, and heavily implied to be in love with Ms Paint, both of whom are genuinely good characters. (I don’t count his love for Jade, because that was forced on him by the Bec Prototype.) additionally, jack is not treated with complete revulsion. vriska makes fun of him, diamonds droog feels sort of a brotherly friendship towards him, and Ms Paint genuinely cares about him and wants to see him happy. none of the above characters are CM’s, either.

does this disqualify him?

General Amos is the only one, in my opinion, that looks even slightly decent. That said, all three need rewrites.

Now, a fourth Beck candidate is something I have on my mind. Basically, it's a popular political party that wants to follow the "old christian way" by killing homosexual people. However, I'll ask this; who sounds more heinous? There's the leader of the party, Erik Gindorf, who is the one responsible for propaganda and people joining the party. Carl Borsin, on the other hand, is the one doing the killings.

edited 23rd May '18 11:02:21 AM by MenInGreyToBlak

We've had a case made against Jack before which just sort of petered off, looking at it. Between that and stuff like his utter shock at the damage Lord English does implying a level of slight but existent standards? I really, really think we should just axe Jack Noir, pronto.

Oh, and cut all the Battle Tech ones. I think those were leftovers from the pre-EP days; never properly reananalyzed.

edited 23rd May '18 11:08:54 AM by Scraggle

If Borsin's acting on his own, I'd say only he could count. If the other dude's ordering the killings, I'd say both could make it.

I just discussed it with Jackie, and I spoke in error. Draculon did not have superiors in the film. I thought there was a throwaway line. Switching to on him.

Myron and Jack

I was waiting for a defense on Draculon. I'm officially saying aye to him.

i agree with scraggle, we should just axe him. jack noir is a lot of things, but complete monster is not one of them.

i’m glad this got cleared up, because jack’s presence on the page has irked me for a while. do we need more approval to cut him, tho?

edited 23rd May '18 11:18:20 AM by atiredonnie

That we do. Considering the amount of time that's passed from the last attempt to cut him? I say we resolve this now, and I'm officially a hard cut on him.

Any other thoughts on Jack?

If DDD's now a yes on Draculon, I'll throw in a yes too.

I could go either way on Jack (though it must be said that Even Evil Can Be Loved is NOT disqualifying).

I'm fine cutting the Battle Tech trio.

edited 23rd May '18 11:28:32 AM by ACW

Cut him now, aye.

Jack

I'll file the cuts Friday if they get enough votes.

Anyone know enough about Battle Tech?

Jack

switching to on draculon