Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

What happens to him?

I wanna say yes, as he's heinous enough, but considering the potential mitigating factors when combined, and considering that he seems like an anvilicious character, I'm abstaining for now.

Zoey finds a way to freeze his implants at the absolute last second, gives a speech on how she won't kill him because of a Cycle of Revenge thing, but the scene ends with her passing out when a bunch of psychopaths aligned with the good side entering the room and definitely killing some of Molech's men, but it's not explicitly stated if he's killed. The denouement does have said psychopaths being awarded by the president for saving the world and her referring to Molech in the past tense, though.

And yeah. He is anvilicous as hell, both In-Universe and out. I didn't know that affects CM-ness, though.

edited 14th Sep '17 7:43:40 AM by Larkmarn

It doesn't necessarily by itself, but I'm a bit wary of anvilicious CMs to begin with, and then combine that with ALL the potential mitigating factors, and I'm a bit hesitant. I won't vote no though.

Look at what I've found on Monster/Literaure page:

Deathstalker: The woman from whom the Uber-Espers derived. She was such a Complete Monster that, broken into four parts, her spirit manifested as four different Eldritch Abominations that proceeded to wreak unspeakable horrors on humanity. Their most horrible crimes are, in fact, those they commit through their possessed thralls, everything from turning the noble Paragons in sadistic, cannibalistic, and wantonly murderous puppets to causing a stadium of people to rape, brutalize, and mutilate one another, including the children. This was all while she had four minds directing her power in different directions.

I brough up this entry about 2 weeks ago, but this entry had NOT been removerd. Neither from Monster/Literature page, nor from Deathstalker YMMV page.

Seriously, I think that referencing Complete Monster trope in your entry as 'X is this", "X is one" or, heck, even simply "X." (where X is a villain's name) among many others is something we want the least. Many YMMV tropes may have a sentence consisting of a simple character's name as an example, but CM is a special case.

We need to either revamp or remove this entry.

Also, what about a separate CM page for Supernatural?

I'll say that I can comfortably posit that the first two potentials don't add anything. The last two might, but the first two are almost subversions of a mitigating factor. Even if you add them to the others, you're adding 0 and 0 to the others. Just included them for completion's sake.

Keep in mind, the work is from the perspective of a girl whose had a string of abusive step-fathers and at no point is Molech's story presented as sympathetic in the slightest. Even by him as he spoke it. It was a story of him being excited at finding out how fun killing was, not a story to garner sympathy.

But if you've got your reservations, I get that. I'd rather you have them than me leaving things out (except for some of the heinousness ones I glossed over).

edited 14th Sep '17 8:01:14 AM by Larkmarn

Oh, heinousness isn't an issue. Enough of his crimes are mentioned that he easily is heinous enough.

No need for a Supernatural page just yet (although there very well may be by the time the show ends).

edited 14th Sep '17 8:12:01 AM by ACW

I say cut that bad Deathstalker entry for now. Did we reach a consensus on the Time Controller, by the by? Most people were saying cut and then G brought up that it might — might being the key word here — have agency.

Anyways, yea to the Gloomlord, and on my end, time for that book candidate. This is one I've been meaning to get up for a long, long time... unfortunately, I never had a fair view of the heinous standard. Now that I've finally gotten a chance to skim through the other books and judge the candidate's overall place? I think we can get to the EP I've been meaning to do since forever.

What's the setting?

Welkin Weasels is a fantasy series by Garry Kilworth. In the great land of Welkin, the evil stoat Prince Poynt has taken over the kingdom after the death of his brother and established a harsh slave regime where weasels are forced into harsh labor and often tortured or executed under the horrible rule. This doesn't go well for Lovable Rogue Sylver, an weasel who leads a merry gang of outlaws. Taking it upon themselves to oust Poynt from power, Sylver and his gang travel across Welkin to bring the humans of legend back. What follows is a tale of adventure, fantasy, witty banter, and more references to classic literature than you can shake a stick at.

Essentially a more comedic, irreverent take on the Redwall series, this series has a lot of nasty villains, but I'll be focusing on one from the first trilogy. Poynt (who doesn't count in any way, I should note... he ultimately does care for his chief enforcer Falshed, which is a sentiment that's entirely mutual between them, and surrenders honorably at the end of the series), angry upon learning of Sylver's intention of bringing him down, dispatches a bounty hunter to take them out after his first few attempts to stop them fail. Unfortunately for Poynt, he's just let a dangerous scourge back into Welkin in the process. The bounty hunter's name?

Meet Magellan.

Who is Magellan? What has he done?

A cold-blooded maniac who'll kill anything on four legs. A monster without a spark of remorse in him. The dreaded psychopath of a fox, Magellan, is one of the most feared creatures in Welkin for his murderous ways. A bounty hunter renowned for how sadistically and efficiently he kills his quarries and possessed of an entire laundry list of said victims – one of which was the brother of Dredless, a member of Sylver's gang – Magellan is reviled even by Poynt and Falshed. This isn't enough to stop Poynt from perusing Magellan's services, though.. all sighs point to Magellan being drafted to murder his good-at-heart brother, King Redfur, which Magellan succeeds at without a hitch. With this, Welkin is thrown into chaos and Magellan decides to eschew his job as a bounty hunter and decides to simply become a roving murderer tied to nobody.

With a gang of rogues, Magellan starts to Rape, Pillage, and Burn throughout the land for nothing more than his own amusement, decimating entire communities, massacring countless innocent animals, and robbing and slaughtering even the poorest people they could find. The stoats and the weasels finally forge a temporary alliance to banish Magellan from Welkin, but Magellan's assassination of the king allows Poynt to take over and establish his cruel reign... and, of course, Poynt turns to Magellan's services again. Ordered to slay Sylver and his gang, Magellan tracks Sylver and his gang of rogues with Falshed following, and eventually corners Sylver and his friends in a wide chasm. Magellan whips out a bow and then quickly and coldly shoots Dredless dead right in front of the others, toppling his body into the chasm and hysterically mocking Sylver and his shocked friends before they escape. Continuing to track them down and crippling two of Poynt's soldiers who annoy him, Magellan finally corners Sylver at the end of the book and traps him in a snare, revealing his fondness for human snares and and aptitude in using them, especially fond of how they slowly choke the life out of his victims. Preparing to murder Sylver and informing him his friends are next, Sylver manages to attack the fox in a blind fit of rage and breaks through the snare with a burst of effort, shooting out the wooden stake holding the snare down out of the ground and through the wicked fox's throat. Sylver recovers – Magellan, thank God, does not.

Any mitigating factors?

Not a whit for Magellan himself... the guy's a vicious sadist of a bounty hunter with nary a redeeming quality about him, reviled even by the stoat rulers and utterly murdering the comedy whenever he steps into the scene. The only reason I ever refrained from proposing Magellan for so long is because I didn't have the other books and couldn't really fairly evaluate the heinous standard. Now that I have manage to skim the others... I think Magellan makes it. The guy tosses an entire kingdom into chaos by murdering its ruler and then uses the chaos to start slaughtering everything he can, and that's on top of being a sadist bounty hunter who murders one of the main characters. The other nasty villains of the series, some of who may merit a post themselves – namely Poynt, Flaggatis, and Torca Marda – all have vastly superior resources to Magellan, each of them either being warlords or high-ranking royalty of some sort. Magellan's a bounty hunter and a glorified bandit who nevertheless has a huge impact on the setting, being technically responsible for even allowing Poynt to even come into power all while having a score of nasty crimes on his own.

Conclusion?

Keeper. If I get another villain up from this series, don't be surprised.

Thoughts?

edited 14th Sep '17 9:52:21 AM by Scraggle

Magellan.

Yes to Magellan. That's one nasty fox

to Magellan.

Random question I've been tossing around in my head: Do we wanna organize the Marvel page like the DC page? It'd be something like:

• 616 Universe.
• MAX universe (if not 616)
• Other continuities (1602, 2099, What If)
• Icon

The only snag is what to do with Purple Man, since he's both in 616 AND MAX. Though doing some research, it seems like Alias is 616 and MAX, while something like, say, Max Punisher is NOT 616.

Thoughts?

Mmm... seems like needless work but if you can do it, no harm.

General Ruechang, Baron Ironblood, Magellan, and Gloomlord.

Has anyone suggested Chrono Trigger's Mother Brain? I looked into the thread's past and couldn't find it.

Oh, Magellan

edited 14th Sep '17 10:59:53 AM by MatLShini

Gloomlord, Magellan and Molech.

From what I remember of Chrono Trigger, I can't see Mother Brain counting. I see nothing that really distinguishes her from any other generic rogue AI.

Well, we get to see her succeeding in her plan to kill humans in a chilling way few can compare: placing them on a conveyor belt and turning them into blue sparkly things. We listen to their screams as they cross to the other side. It even made it into the Nightmare Fuel page for the game.

From what we get from the dialogue, this has been going on for centuries. Centuries killing off humans one by one in such a uniquely cruel way. That is not something to overlook.

She also reprograms the peaceful Atropos into a killing machine, intended to subdue Robo and force him into her service. When Robo fights MB at last, she goes ballistic when he mentions to have learned from humans, believing it have made him weak. As she dies, she still doesn't get why Robo would oppose her plan of replacing humans with robots in the future. (Evil Cannot Comprehend Good).

Her sheer hatred of humans wouldn't qualify her for itself. It must be coupled with her actual success (at least before she is defeated) as well as her low level of resources when compared to the likes of Lavos and Queen Zeal. By the standards of the game, she would qualify to me.

Scraggle: I'm anal like that

As for Mother Brain, if you think she counts, go for it.

Magellan.

Baron Ironblood, and Magellan.

edited 14th Sep '17 12:15:11 PM by emperors

@Scrags: That series was actually on my To-Do list, but seems like you beat me to it. Magellan anyway.

OK, let's display her deeds here.

The Game: Chrono Trigger is a 1995 JRPG by Square. A group of adventurers travel through time to stop an apocalypse.

The villain: Mother Brain is an evil A.I and optional boss found in 2300 A.D. Part of a sidequest which serves as the final chapter of Robo's character arc.

Her actions: Mother Brain resides in a place called "Geno Dome". At certain points through the optional dungeon, she talks to you and you get a glimpse of her personality: she really hates humans and believes them to be a plague on the world. She tells her plan is to replace humans with robots, believing that this will lead to an utopia. She welcomes Robo back home but gets angry that he would "defile" the place with the presence of humans. But she adopts a more affable tone and allows them to come in...

This doesn't seem to impressive until you reach a certain room where you see a conveyor belt with helpless humans there being slowly eradicated by a machine and turned into blue sparks- the same ones that symbolize a collectible item. As the victims cross over to the other side of the machine, we listen to their screams of pain.

Further down the line, Robo and his friends meet Atropos, sort of a childhood friend to the robot. She reveals that both of them were created with the special purpose of living with humans and studying them as a species. When Robo refuses to comply with her and Mother Brain's designs, she reveals the A.I had reprogrammed her into being a killing machine. After defeating her, she dies as herself.

Eventually you reach her room, and Mother Brain offers Robo one last chance of joining her in her plans. He refuses, saying his friends are irreplaceable and have taught them a lot. She gets furious and mocks Robo, incapable of believing he has emotions. After her defeat, Robo shuts down the factory and stops her genocidal ambitions.

Heinous standard: She isn't the main villain of the game, and the big baddies are quite damaging and powerful on their own: We see Lavos rising from the ground and bombing the entire world on 1999 A.D and Queen Zeal brutally opresses non-magic users, confining them to live in the Ice Age in Earth while she and her people live in a utopia in the sky.

However, the Queen is stated to having been under Lavos' influence and apparently was a good person once, while Lavos itself is far too alien to pass judgment on. Mother Brain has no excuse: She has full moral agency and actual dialogue, giving her a clearly defined personality. She also doesn't regret her deeds, even displaying Evil Cannot Comprehend Good upon her defeat.

Though we see Lavos destroying the world, her genocidal efforts are far crueler because we see the victims getting killed one by one in a vile fashion that has been happening for centuries in the game's universe. She is also able to reprogram a peaceful robot like Atropos into a killing machine to serve her will. Her resource level is lower than Zeal's and Lavos', which also makes her stand out in this regard.

On a smaller, more personal level, she mocks Robo, believing him to have no emotions and that humans made him weak.

Mitigating factors/excuses: She fully believes the world would be better without humans, paiting herself as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. However, all of her points about humanity fall flat: she wouldn't exist if it wasn't for them and also the end of the world wasn't caused by humans. They had nothing to do with Lavos. Her hatred is nothing but irrational.

Yes or no: By the game's standard, yes.

If Mother Brain does indeed have agency, I'm inclined to vote yes, but I'm still getting WIE vibes.

Success doesn't mean anything for a Complete Monster dude. Don't use that as a deciding factor. Anyway I'm going for on Mother Brain. She sounds too Well-Intentioned Extremist even if she was wrong about the fact that it wasn't people who was turning the world into hell. Take for example, the Anti-Spiral (Aka the thing in my avatar), it's clearly wrong about Spiral Energy and the Spiral Nemesis but that doesn't make it any less of a Well-Intentioned Extremist.

edited 14th Sep '17 12:46:35 PM by ReynTime250

Sorry I gotta vote down Mother Brain because of agency concerns and I am not sure if she meets FF heinous standard.