During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Has anyone here seen Detroit (2017)? If so, does anyone count?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't know when it was released in the US, but it was only released yesterday in my country. If you wanna know, ask for people to PM you - you probably meant that, but try and make it clearer next time. Otherwise, please don't ask for such things and respect our two week spoiler policy.
EDIT: August 4th? OK.
I think I'm legally obliged to ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Emperor Helldragon.
Also, Hilt, the so-called Lawgiver.
edited 26th Aug '17 10:25:22 AM by PolarPhantom
To catch up:
@ Tzimisce: I think I'll give a tentative yea...Tzimisce's origin is a bit shrouded in mystery, but providing we clarify WHICH origin, given White Wolf's very loose approach to cannon...
@ Joe Hilt: Yea to him
@ Goldie Muso: Oh, my god...this is a raw one. Ok, so for those unfamiliar, Gunsmith Cats' manga is a different animal from the anime where Radinov is the worst. Goldie is a terrible person, a violent mob boss and a rapist, but...she has a bit of sympathy in her backstory, has moral standards she won't violate and returns from the dead to do a completely fucking ridiculous Heel–Face Turn and hook up with one of the heroines. So, cut to Goldie in the most annoying way.
@ Detroit: Nobody counts. In a movie like this, it'd be goddamn hard to.
@ Marcus Kane: No to him. Marcus was a nasty bully and attempted rapist in life, but the movie makes very clear that upon returning as the Masked Rider, the original Marcus is gone and he's just a pawn of Malachi, who pulled a Came Back Wrong very deliberately. While he can act with more ability than Malachi's other undead, Marcus never speaks and doesn't even acknowledge Solomon's pleas at the end, indicating he's just an empty shell carrying Malachi's orders, and even then, Malachi obliterates him in heinousness.
@Polar Phantom, Detroit has been out in the US since August 4th.
@Lighty, Why would it be too hard to count in Detroit?
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Marcus and Goldie.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Lightysnake Hmmmmmmmm............So that's why she doesn't count. I'm wondering what on earth her backstory and her standards looks like that ended up disqualify Goldie. And yea....Seeing the Heel Face Turn part changes my opinion that this girl is .
And P.S. I already cut Goldie from the YMMV page
edited 26th Aug '17 9:47:32 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Detroit is a film that is more an indictment of the system than any specific individual, which is also an indictment of the underlying attitudes of the police and civil authorities. The end result would be portraying people as flawed, even horrible and racist, but ultimately as people who believe they are doing what's right to restore law and order, while the most vile of them all will have a hard time wracking up the deeds to count, by whom I mean the corrupt, craven, murderous bastard Krauss.
As for Goldie...she became nuts in trying to avenge her grandfather, and she displays some standards like ordering her men not to kill a guy's dog for moral reasons
edited 26th Aug '17 10:34:19 AM by Lightysnake
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yep.........That convinces me to give Goldie a solid Even if she's pretty heinous on her own.
Was this done by you guys?
- The Ax-Crazy, sociopathic, Archibald Grims, a Psycho for Hire without a cause, only wants and loves "needless bloodshed, especially from the innocents." He also gleefully forces Elzam to make a Sadistic Choice, whether it's to allow Grims to unleash a deadly nerve gas, killing the entire populace of a colony, or to kill his, Elzam's, own wife to prevent the attack.
This seems a bit small for a Complete Monster entry and if he counts needs updating. (Haven't played Super Robot Wars so I don't know)
edited 26th Aug '17 10:43:13 AM by ReynTime250
Yeah, Grims was up ages ago. He's a pretty solid keeper but his entry may be a bit small.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, that was approved, but I agree that his writeup (maybe Lubikka's as well) could use some expansion.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
by . Lighty, care to expand him (and/or Lubikka's)?
edited 26th Aug '17 10:44:39 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Given Lighty's info, sure, Tzimisce
Marcus
Messenger from another dimension.
Easy no to Marcus. I disagree with Lighty and think he is easily heinous enough but his Moral Agency is the issue. Yeah, he was an asshole before but he wasn't very heinous at that time.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
That entry is not too small at all. Complete Monster entries tend to be overly long, and that one has enough qualifiers to stand.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Could go either way on expanding Grims. The entry communicates that he's a qualifier, but if there's a vital detail or something missing there, I'd be happy with an expansion.
@ACW: In reference to your question about the Fly, Spider chucks him off a building around the same time he kills Hilt. As for why he doesn't count? I explained that in the EP. There's no redeeming qualities with the Fly, but with Anput on one hand and the Lawgiver on the other, the Fly is ultimately overshadowed.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, that makes sense, especially considering Lawgiver seems to act as more of The Heavy.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, Fly's bad enough on paper, but even factoring out Anput (who very handily outweighs the Fly in terms of his more economic crimes... the Fly's responsible for the 2008 financial crisis, as is revealed in-story, but Anput wants to take out Wall Street by turning thousands of people into zombies) a large part of Fly's goals and crimes are willingly and knowingly sponsored by Hilt, who himself racks up way more bodies than the Fly ever manages during his tenure as a villain.
edited 26th Aug '17 12:10:09 PM by Scraggle
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Plus it seems like Lawgiver is willing to have innocent civilians killed as long as his targets are also killed, which seems to go beyond what the Fly wants.
BTW, how does Ys look now?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, fair enough. And Hilt DEFINITELY seems bad enough for what he has.
edited 26th Aug '17 12:15:36 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I mean, the Fly kills innocents and all — his first scene has him taking a bunch of people hostage and murdering one of them in front of the Spider just to piss him off — but considering Hilt murders well over a hundred people, children included, just to kill off about a few dozen cops in one case...
Anyways, it's a moot point. All that can be said about the Fly is that he really doesn't stand out enough in his setting.
Ys looks fine now.
Oh, one more thing... the Spider's got a decent quote in reference to Hilt. May edge a bit closer to You Monster! but I feel it's worth bringing up through here:
edited 26th Aug '17 12:20:22 PM by Scraggle
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I like that quote.
BTW, I MAY have another incarnation of Red Skull. I just have to check with Ravok to see if it's worth proposing.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Oh, yet another version of Red Skull may be worth discussion. Next you'll be telling me we've got another version of Brainiac (gasp!).
I think I'm going to stay out of discussing any future Marvel literature candidates from here on. It really, really feels like we're just running through the motions with a lot of these villains.
edited 26th Aug '17 12:26:41 PM by Scraggle
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, it's not from literature. And the version may be a stretch.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Now I feel silly
edited 26th Aug '17 7:32:57 AM by G-Editor