During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I agree Towa should get a rewrite.
As for abusing animals, I think it's just not considered heinous enough on its own. Maybe if they wanted to destroy all non-sapient life For Teh Evuls... Maybe I'll write a villain like that one day just to see what this thread thinks, who knows.
edited 9th Aug '17 7:30:21 AM by PolarPhantom
One question, do we still have Generic Doomsday Villain as a CM-disqualifying factor ? I was away from all CM-related work for a while so I'm not sure if anything's changed. And if GDV is still a CM-disqualifying factor, then we should probably mention it in the FAQ section.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yes, GDV is still a disqualifier. I'll try and work up a possible question for the FAQ soon.
It is still a disqualifying factor, its just that nowadays we tend to define GDV more strictly.
edited 9th Aug '17 7:55:14 AM by TommyFresh
Well, you see, I brought this up because I am arguing that SCP-3148 is a GDV and should be cut. I argue that this character lacks a coherent motivation behind its actions.
I had brought this point up during the proposal phase of SCP-3148, but the proposer rebutted me with the claim that SCP-3148 is not a GDV and has coherent motivation in the form of For the Evulz.
I remain unconvinced.
SCP-3148's personality and motivations are poorly explored throughout the writing. There are a few hidden quotes on the fourth subpage presumably written by it, and the most direct form of exploring its personality comes from its gloating poem at the end. The problem is that none of these paragraphs explain why is he attempting to destroy Earth, and that they do not establish it as an entity who performs evil actions For the Evulz.
Let us analyze the major part that explores its motivations, the final poem:
The wolf ate the owl
The wolf ate the wren
The wolf ate the crow in the dragon's den.
The dragon woke up
And saw the mad beast
And she thought he'd make a rather fine feast.
The wolf he was clever
The wolf he was sly
The wolf spun a tale, a glint in his eye.
The dragon thought hard
And she thought it best
To tear a wide hole in her beating chest
The wolf grinned and laughed
and went out once again
to go find another dragon's den.
Suckers
This is all clearly a metaphorical representation of how SCP-3148 destroyed a world, by influencing humans with infectious paranoia that made them destroy themselves, likening itself to the wolf and the world to the dragon. However, this poem still doesn't explain SCP-3148's motivations. The wolf started out as evil eating the owl and the wren, and there is no indication as to just why is the wolf doing such things, or WHY does SCP-3148 want to destroy Earth. A single word "Suckers" is not enough to fully develop its motivations as something fully sadistic.
WHY does SCP-3148 want to destroy Earth is never explained. At all. It simply showed up one day, drove everyone into self-destructive paranoia, destroyed Earth, took a piss at it, and left for another Earth. Compare with Kalinin's SCP-001, which has a clear (if buried within Purple Prose) motivation of wanting to ruin Earth for their alien supremacy, or Dr. Rasmin Yelkov's mad obsession with his sadistic science. Even SCP-993, Bobble the Clown, has its sadism fully developed and fleshed out in Behind the Scenes.
For the Evulz is doing evil things because they want to. It is still a reason, and needs to be explained and developed. In the work's current form, SCP-3148 simply lacks a coherent motivation, because it was never fully developed.
I therefore argue that SCP-3148 is an example of a Generic Doomsday Villain and should be cut from Monster.SCP Foundation.
edited 9th Aug '17 8:26:26 AM by Wuz
New candidate, from The Tale of Despereaux.
What's the work?
The Tale of Despereaux is an interesting work, a book and a movie. Take classic fairy tales, mishmash them with talking mice, rats and finally Gray-and-Gray Morality, and you get this. What it boils down to is a mouse, the titular Despereaux, saving a princess. This EP will be about the movie, though it follows very closely to the book. They basically can be considered one work.
Who is Botticelli Remorso and what does he do?
Boticelli Remorso believes that the meaning of life is to take pleasure in the suffering of other beings. That's a good start, right? He is the leader of the underground rat world, and, in that role, is cruel and ruthless. At the beginning of the movie, a rat who doesn't like the darkness, Roscuro, is manipulated and forced by Botticelli into joining the rat colony.
Next, we see what I consider Botty's worst act: in the rat's colloseum area, several mice are put into an unwinnable deathmatch with a cat (cats are treated as the devil to mice and rats), where they are eaten and killed. This amuses him and his subjects. He does this to the main character, Despereaux, as well, but he manages to escape.
Later, Roscuro, after being turned to the dark side by Boticelli, had captured the princess to be devoured by Boticelli and his rats. However, he realizes what he's done and tries to tell the rats that the princess is a good person, Boticelli not letting him speak. He instead lets his rats trample her, eat her and generally harm her, because he wants her dead. For the Evulz.
In the film's big climax, it returns to the colloseum, and the cat is released by the heroes. In a very Karmic Death, Boticelli is devoured by the cat, the loss mourned by no one.
Another detail that you notice throughout the movie is, in Ratworld, there are skulls and bones littered everywhere. The film makes note of this, and is not Fridge Horror, quite obviously being a result of Boticelli and his rats'... work.
Heinous standard?
Sets it, but even then he passes the baseline, as well as the one for kid's films in general. Throughout history he's forcibly trapped mice in the colloseum, leaving them to be eaten, and as well as that he proves himself to be an utter Manipulative Bastard as well as nearly causing the princess a Cruel and Unusual Death. In the general younger-audience-movie standards he certainly has unique crimes to his name. Feeding innocents to cats and swarming over a lady with an army of rabid animals in the hope that she'll die from it is pretty vile, though some people here may think it's tame compared to the shit that comes through here.
Regarding resources: he has a rat army, and operates on a small scale. It's not like he can just waltz up to humans and cause a genocide, and he does a lot with what he has. A cruel leader who murders and manipulates innocents.
Mitigators?
He doesn't show affection or hatred to his subjects, so those are neither mitigating or qualifying. He believes that the suffering of other beings is the meaning of life, any possible mitigators he would have thrown away. He acts friendly to Roscuro, however it is manipulation and he never shows true affection to him, or anyone else for that matter.
Played Seriously?
Yes, yes he is. In the original book, he was written with the exact objective to be the only pure evil character in this universe, the only one devoid of altruistic qualities, decent intentions, or a sympathetic background. And they damn well succeeded.
Verdict?
In my book? ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
Of note: In the book version, he is a Karma Houdini, instead of being eaten by a cat he escapes. He is marginally worse in that version than here, as he gets less screentime here.
edited 9th Aug '17 11:24:11 AM by MahStache
Changed my mind. I believe Boticelli is bad enough if the games are onscreen.
edited 9th Aug '17 3:06:47 PM by ReynTime250
Botticelli
Me Listening to You RN
Botticelli
Okay the results are clear: Everyone except me said No to Shine Bright. I guess I overestimated her heinousness. Obviously I’ve to set higher standards for MLP villains, while still being careful not to pick something to grim dark.
for Boticelli Remorso.
Leaning towards a yes for Dalles but need more information before making a vote. Since he was mostly acting as Dragon for two different big bads, it would be good to know If he was mostly acting on his own or just following his orders.Then there's Darn who sounds like a rather nasty fellow, too. Is he, by any chance, actually worse than Dalles?
Eh... leaning no on Botticelli. I don't think quite enough is onscreen.
Anyways, time for a new candidate of my own...
What's the setting?
Sorcerer Stabber Orphen is a two season anime based on a light novel series. A sort of spiritual counterpart to Slayers, we follow Krylancelo, better known as Orphen, a prestigious, hot-blooded sorcerer taught by the famed school of magic, the Tower of Fangs. Alongside his friends Cleao and Majik, Orphen sets about on various wacky adventures throughout the land, fighting off evil monsters and a variety of colorful antagonists. Nobody counts in the first season. The second season, Revenge, seems even less likely for qualifiers, as the tone lightens up considerably. Here, we're introduced to a new companion of Orphen's, the adorable Lycoris, a young, errant orphan girl send to lead Orphen to some sort of knight academy. Except... said academy doesn't exist. And Lycoris isn't an orphan. Things gradually start to get darker again as we find out a plot going all the way back to Lycoris' family, the Nielsons... and the one behind them.
Meet Escalena.
Who is Escalena? What has she done?
What appears to be a cheery, green-haired little girl is actually a monstrous “sorcerous beast.” Escalena rampaged across the land years ago, causing havoc for her own merriment, until she was finally sealed away by the Heavenly Beings within a temple. Escalena remains trapped in the temple for centuries until luck finally comes her way in the form of a pawn; McGregor Neilson and his daughters, Esperanza and Lycoris. McGregor is a man studying the world to find some sort of global cure to all illness and misfortune, his wife having passed of an illness some time ago and his daughters now afflicted with the same. Escalena makes a pact with McGregor: she resurrects one of the girls when they die, in exchange for McGregor murdering five sorcerers in tribute to her so she can use their power and break the seal. Else? She kills the girl again – and turns her into a horrific monster. Lycoris is utterly horrified at the terms and what Escalena is slowly turning her father into and even tries to kill herself to dissuade McGregor from going any further. Escalena saves her... and then promptly erases her memory, forcing Esperanza to repeatedly edit her own sister's memories so the truth is kept from her.
Under Escalena's direction, Lycoris is sent out as a fetching tool for the one and only Orphen as McGregor sets about kidnapping other sorcerers, managing to sacrifice three of them to Escalena's name. Escalena mostly sits back at the sidelines, even as Orphen and the others finally invade the temple and learn of McGregor's plans and Lycoris' true identity (although there is one... creepy scene where Escalena summons Lycoris' cute little pet Pam and just disintegrates it while laughing) but Escalena finally gets a chance to show off during a battle between Orphen and the nutty, estranged brother of Flamesoul from the first season, Flameheart. After Flameheart turns into a monster for the purpose of defeating Orphen, Escalena suddenly ensnares him with dark powers and devours him as he pleads for his life, breaking the fourth seal in the process. Escalena joyfully states she only needs one more life to be free and offers a choice; either Orphen or McGregor die to free her. McGregor steps up, but once Esperanza urges him not to and makes him hesitate, Escalena reveals the truth about the girls.
For the past few episodes, we were under the impression it was Lycoris who died and was resurrected. Not the case. Esperanza was the girl Escalena revived – and not a second after she reveals this, Escalena cruelly murders her right in front of her sobbing sister. Oh, and that pact? Was a complete lie, too. Escalena never planned on letting either of the girls live even after she was unsealed. Her ultimate goal, when Orphen finally confronts her on it? Utterly annihilate the world for giggles, laughing that the prospect of murdering every human on the surface of the earth would be so fun to her. McGregor and Orphen finally engage Escalena in a final battle, ending with her childlike form disintegrated and her true, monstrous form – a colossal mesh of teeth, stone, and sentient red vines – arises, attempting to destroy the temple with everyone still in it and unleash her powers on the world. Thankfully, Orphen and his allies manage to channel their power into the temple's throne – the actual activation device of the seal itself – and send Escalena reeling back into the abyss. Unfortunately, Escalena takes out one spiteful card and fatally impales McGregor to take him to the grave with her, before the combined power of Orphen and his allies finally overwhelm and destroy her forever.
Any mitigating factors?
Not a single one. She's got complete agency, no excuse or redeeming moments, darkens the season considerably, and she blows every villain in either season completely out of the water with her goal of “murder everything everywhere for shits and giggles.” There's really not a lot to talk about here.
Conclusion?
I say easy keep.
Thoughts?
Messenger from another dimension.
Escalena but no on Boticelli.
Yea to Escalena...bit torn on Boticceli
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Escalena.
Assuming the Gladiator Games are onscreen, Botticelli.
BTW, should Manhua, Manhwa, and Light Novel stuff get their own page (or get moved to Other Media), or are they fine where they are with AniManga.
edited 9th Aug '17 3:02:48 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
This is the third time you've brought that up. Just leave them
The Gladiator Games scenes are onscreen. The first one we see is Despereaux's one, in which the rats in the stadium are chanting "EAT EAT EAT" while the cat is wheeled out. More importantly, the scene with the princess being wheeled out to the stadium ready to be gorged on is entirely onscreen. It's enough to establish a pattern, and honestly, compared to the book and rest of the film, it feels like it's dark for the sake of being dark. Maybe a bit too dark for a G rated film, but hey, so is Toy Story 3.
I rambled a bit, sorry. My point is, no need to worry about the games being offscreen, as they aren't.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Affirmed vote then.
As for dark for kids movies, Lion King and Hunchback were both rated G!! Actually, of the 7 Disney Animated Canon entries we have, only Rourke and Horned King come from PG-rated movies.
edited 9th Aug '17 3:26:05 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Escalena, leaning no on Boticelli at the moment.
Wait, Frollo was an acceptable villain in a G rated film? I thought Hunchback was the first PG rated one.
Talk about Getting Crap Past the Radar.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Black Cauldron was, but yeah, how the heck they let basically a genocidal rapist in a G-movie...
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, at one point in the film I remember Frollo heavily implying he intends to rape Esmeralda "Sleep with me or burn".
Say I have a question how come the likes of Malificent and Chernabog didn't make the cut of CM?
Generic villainy.
I remember there was a little talk awhile ago about making this trope non-YMMV...I don't see that happening either.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts