During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Oh yeah, by the way, Kovar is played by Dolph Lundgren, for those who wanted to know.
I think it'd be interesting to compare and contrast Kovar to Matthew Shrieve, currently the only Big Bad on Arrow who counts as a Complete Monster. Both are people who betray the trust of the general public in order to commit mass murder with biological or chemical means—Shrieve due to being a deranged racist lunatic (and thus it's effectively attempted genocide) and Kovar in order to take control of Russia for himself.
edited 7th Jun '17 12:44:07 PM by speyeker
Messenger from another dimension.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Actually, I am wary of Kovar counting because of Shrieve. Shrieve is much worse since his victims are mostly civilians while Kovar targets politicians and military.
Hmm, fair point, emperors.
I would like to consider disqualifying Chucky of the Child's Play series. While it is true that he's a despicable sadist, one must consider that he does show a few glimpses of affection in Seed of Chucky. When Glen/Glenda, who Chucky thinks is Tiffany, kills Joan, Chucky sees her crying and genuinely tries to comfort her. Also he seems to genuinely care for his child. When Glen fights back and kills Chucky, Chucky shows legitimate pride in his son. Two very small Pet the Dog moments, but still worth noting.
edited 7th Jun '17 12:48:57 PM by ChaoticQueen
Messenger from another dimension.
In this case, easy no to Chucky. Granted, I only count the first 3 movies as my personal canon, but I don't make decisions so he has to be cut.
edited 7th Jun '17 12:50:50 PM by emperors
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I should note Seed is kind of...dubiously canon with the original/s and with Curse....there's a lot of different continuity issues there.
Also, chucky pretty solidly turns on Glen/Glenda even by the end. As well as Tiffany. Foremost, he tries to kill Tiffany himself later with zero issue. And being pleased Glen is a killer isn't what I'd call redeeming.
Anyways, that's pretty moot since Curse doesn't seem to take Seed into account at all.
edited 7th Jun '17 12:52:35 PM by Lightysnake
Lizzid people!
OK, I don't mean to open a can of worms with this, but I don't feel wholly comfortable with Teppei Houjou being on the list. Now, when he was originally proposed, it was claimed that he raped his niece. However, I tried to find the source of that claim, but I didn't find anything on that; the only thing that I found that might've been misinterpreted was mentioned in the TIPS where it says that if Satoko were older, he would've sexually assaulted her, but as of now, he never sexually abused her. Now as for the part where he kills Rika, that honestly isn't shocking. Rika dies in nearly every arc as part of the plan to excuse the Hinamizawa Curse as the cause for the town's destruction as Rika is held as the figurehead of the village. Besides that, murdering Rika isn't really heinous as other antagonists have not only done that, but also through needlessly sadistic ways: Takano disembowels her on the shrine, Shion injects a chemical meant for her into Rika's bloodstream, and cackles like a maniac as she watched Rika stab herself repeatedly in the temple with a knife, etc.
I do get the whole idea for the lower scale, but he honestly comes off more as a remorseless dick than pure evil.
edited 7th Jun '17 12:55:43 PM by AustinDR
@86378: well, I'd take it as a Pragmatic Villainy, since Konstantin Kovar has no reason to target civilians if he plans to take over Russia. Besides, the Omega virus spreads much easier than the Sarin gas, a problem that could simply be solved through turning off the gas, freeing the victims or wearing a Gas mask. A resource argument can be made here.
Besides, let's not forget about how Kovar tortures Oliver, and even states that he has done so to others.
edited 7th Jun '17 12:57:38 PM by MiraiYuji
Except we see Tiffany alive in human form at the end of Curse, and is presumably in Jennifer Tilly's body. Chucky even mentions Jennifer Tilly near the end of Curse.
Messenger from another dimension.
Abstain on Kovar for now.
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I'm of the firm opinion any potentially redeeming qualities about Chucky are null and void by the end of Seed if we even do consider it canon. Keep him.
Austin, if that's true, I'm fine discussing to cut Teppei.
@ Queen: That's my point. Hence the continuity issues with Seed and Curse. She's his accomplice there, but Chucky has consistently not shown actual love for her. He's very willing to kill her should we get in the way.
Messenger from another dimension.
Okay, change my mind. Keep Chucky.
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Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Teppei indeed may not be bad enough. Austin, are the 4 others still qualifiers?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
Nomura would still count as she orchestrates the Great Hinamizawa Disaster, I would personally say that the Orphanage Leader still counts, but that's just me. Not going to discuss Umineko as I am not really knowledgeable on that.
Alright, fair point. I just wanted to discuss it. If people are saying to keep him, I'll back down.
Foreign Troper
Since I Pm'd you about it, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Kovar.
At first I thought he was kinda generic and underwhelming, but he really surprised me. His brutal coup combined with the pretty cruel method of torture really makes him a unique combination of previous villains (The Count and Shrieve) and made him memorable for me.
I also very much enjoyed Dloph Lundgren's performance.
edited 7th Jun '17 1:24:02 PM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
While we're on the topic of Arrow, we're still sure that Edward Fyers doesn't count, right? I know he was ultimately hired by Amanda Waller (who herself obviously doesn't count for a multitude of reasons), but he really seems like a Psycho for Hire in this regard.
edited 7th Jun '17 1:26:44 PM by speyeker
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Kovar. "On his search, Oliver murders one of Kovar's disciples in Krasnoyarsk. In retribution, Kovar asks the criminal organization Bratva to eliminate Oliver." I assume this isn't a matter of caring for said disciple?
Second CM (at least) played by Dolph.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
It isn't. In fact, it was a lie that Bratva told Oliver. Actually, Kovar revealed that this man wasn't one of his associates, but a man whose business Bratva wanted to take over. I'd better erase that part, I guess.
edited 7th Jun '17 1:46:13 PM by MiraiYuji
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, well then. That makes things easier.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Il Carnifice, Froid, and Konstantin Kovar.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Gargoyle, Malfatto, the Chancellor, the Seamstress, and (and this one really burns me) Prometheus. Man's a psychopathic serial killer, I think his reasons for going after Oliver are self-justifying at best, but the son of a bitch did care about his wife. It's not like when I proposed Rahm Tak (who loved his wife, but murdered her when she tried to reason with him, then sent her head back to his bosses). I really wanted Chase to count. It's David and Reverse-Flash all over again.
Cleaed it up in my effortpost, instead of erasing it.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Kovar
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.