During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's a separate issue as well. Part of the point of Kid Radd is that sprites do have agency, but need to work to avoid sliding into bad habits. But the Seer explicitly isn't a sprite (he's a computer virus and explicitly not part of the sprite realm) and it's unclear that he has enough agency to choose to be good, even if it's clear he has sentience (the Seer decided to not go off when given a chance initially, but only because he wanted to cause more damage).
edited 24th Aug '16 6:34:10 PM by thok
There's a mistake with the quote on the Transformers page. The current version is:
"Say goodbye to the universe, Maximals! Yes. The Autobots lose! Evil triumphs! And you... you no longer exist!"
The quote actually goes:
"Say goodbye to the universe, Maximals! The future has changed. Yes. The Autobots lose! Evil triumphs! And you... you no longer exist!"
This one's my bad, folks; I suggested that quote in the first place, way back when we were doing the previous cleanup of the Transformers page.
Marginally related: does anybody else find it funny that both of David Kaye's Megatrons are CMs, but neither of Frank Welker's are? Also, I still maintain that the version from War For Cybertron and the sequel would count if the games weren't in continuity with Prime.
edited 24th Aug '16 7:53:58 PM by DeCarta
If it weren't for Prime Megatron's Heel–Face Turn/Heel Realization in the Made-For-TV Predacons Rising movie epilogue, I think he would have most certainly have counted as a Complete Monster.
edited 24th Aug '16 10:14:39 PM by Shadao
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I just requested the quote fix.
The Unknown Unknown
If anyone hasn't, I'd like to reserve Blazblue Central Fiction. While I doubt anything will change, might as well keep an eye out
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Planeswalker
Wow so I wasn't able to come back for the Jack discussion (or lack of, it didn't seem like anyone really wanted to discuss), but I don't remember anyone saying within the comic Bec Noir went berserker because of Bec's side. Sounds like pure speculation. Also the Even Evil Has Standards moment you mentioned is equally ambiguous, I just read it as flat out shock at English's power. (Since it's part of a flash and Homestuck isn't voiced, so there's no dialogue or narration either way)
We are told there's going to be an epilogue, but officially the comic is over. And seeing how it ended I doubt there will be much redeeming going on.
edited 25th Aug '16 9:14:02 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
If nothing else, it might give us clarification on Hazama, since I remember someone mentioned he's different from Terumi.
The Unknown Unknown
Yeah, Hazama's been separated from Terumi as of CF, making them two distinct characters now.
Speaking of which, that may mean Terumi/Hazama's entry needs tweaking. But of course that can wait until CF releases.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That's fine; the current entry is a bit lacking in detail anyway. BTW, don't forget to claim in on the discussion dates page.
I find this to be very fun too. I do often break rules without knowing it though and that gets me nervous from time to time.
I heard they cut a Joker abusing Harley scene from Suicide Squad. I still really like the movie, but that makes me mad. It could have disqualified any redeeming features he has.
edited 25th Aug '16 8:24:15 AM by futuremoviewriter
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
So there's this saying called beating a dead horse.....
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
It tenderizes the meat and softens the leather.
Lizzid people!
What was the final vote on Jack?
Planeswalker
I only saw one vote on him before the discussion moved away. So there wasn't a decision made.
edited 25th Aug '16 9:15:23 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
That's all I'm gonna say on the subject of Suicide Squad then.
Latest edits on LokSat. They're minor, but still have a point:
- LokSat, real name Mason Wood, is the Big Bad of the eighth and final season and the Greater-Scope Villain of the series in general. A corrupt government agent, it is revealed in the two-part season premiere "XY"/"XX" that he was William Bracken’s silent partner, providing him with the assassins and hitmen he used throughout the series and took part in helping to cover up their crimes as well as Bracken’s. When Beckett's former D.C. team begins looking into finding him, he has four of them killed in a car accident and the fifth one stabbed in a nightclub. He sends assassins after both Beckett and Vikram Singh later on to silence them both. When Bracken is questioned by Beckett on him and later by Castle, LokSat has him brutally murdered in prison. He also frames the investigating Attorney General Allison Hyde as a patsy, has her killed and staged as a suicide to close the investigation into him. When Beckett is seemingly able to persuade Caleb Brown to turn on him, in the series finale "Crossfire" LokSat has his enforcer Mr. Flynn brutally burn an unknown man to death in order to fake Caleb’s death, only sparing Caleb because he’s still useful. He emotionally manipulates and potentially harms Castle’s stepmother Rita for information. He has Flynn abduct Castle and subject him to an extremely potent truth serum, during which Mason personally asks one by one about who else knows about the investigation (including Castle's family), coldly stating his intention to have them all eliminated. He later attempts to ambush Beckett and tries to throw her into an incinerator. When he’s captured, he seems to send Caleb out of spite to shoot and try to kill Castle and Beckett in their own apartment. Representing the darkest elements of the series, LokSat is most notable as the most dangerous threat the characters have ever faced.
edited 25th Aug '16 9:35:42 AM by futuremoviewriter
Speaking of Joker from Suicide Squad, maybe there's the chance he'll come back as a CM in the sequels. As usual, I say just wait and see.
Planeswalker
I'd be more open to the idea of Waller becoming a CM by exploring her motivations. But yes, all we can do is wait and see.
Oissu!
I'd hate to ever see Waller as a CM. The whole purpose of her character is she's a hard, tough as nails, ruthless operative dedicated to protecting her country, even by ruthless and immoral means.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- FMV: To the Drafts page please.
- So consensus is Jack Noir stays, at least for now?
Planeswalker
My impression from my limited knowledge of the comics is she only used that to rise to power?
I'd say keep for now unless someone else can weigh in on the issue. I didn't see those moments the same way as DrPsyche did but maybe I'm in the minority.
edited 25th Aug '16 10:52:32 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
Not in any comic I've ever read. Waller is fully dedicated to defending the US.
I don't have a lot of knowledge about Waller, but I can't see her ever counting from what I know.
@ACW It's FMW. And I have at least one more edit I'm gonna do in the next week or so first. Then I'll add it.
edited 25th Aug '16 11:09:51 AM by futuremoviewriter
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
You are right ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
. I am used to the abbreviation FMV.
Unless Joker is just magically stripped of his redeeming qualities - which seems unlikely as the edits were made precisely to make Joker more sympathetic here - I don't see that happening. Get used to it, folks.
Amanda Waller as a CM would mean removing a fundamental aspect from her character and jacking up her extremist traits way higher than they'd need to go; while it could conceivably happen, I suppose, it's still a flagrant bastardization of the character in my opinion.
That's all I'll say on that... I think I recall at least three people on board to cut Jack. As for myself... I'd wager he's heinous enough but his reaction to English's carnage alone makes me skeptical, so put me in the "cut" vote unless a counterargument can be made.
edited 25th Aug '16 11:23:07 AM by Scraggle
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
Does the Seer even have agency? Eh, you can do an effortpost if you want; I'm fine either way. Plus Ravok told me there may be SEVERAL more for Sidekicks.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts