During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Diana.
Diana. Not astonishingly so but she probably does enough for being a ghost trapped in a woman's mind.
I have my reaction to Krall ready. Awaiting the effort post...
He doesn't count, bluntly speaking. Krall has a sympathetic backstory and is treated way too sympathetically in the film. I think he (just) hits the heinous standard Nero's established, but he seemed to care for his own crew.
I say to Krall. I believe his Freudian Excuse isn't quite enough. He claims his intentions are good, but he's actually a hypocritical, warmongering xenophobe who just wants blood.
Much like how Ajax worked fine with his own crew but didn't really care for them, I felt the same with Krall.
edited 5th Aug '16 8:41:35 AM by futuremoviewriter
Because he was literally raised in a time of war and had no idea how to cope with peace. He then crashed on a planet and went insane using alien tech to prolong his life, feeling abandoned and trying to preserve what remained of his crew.
At the end, he comes off as a broken man who is only doing the only things he knows left to do, and the film even gives him some sympathy. Kirk even says he just got lost. Krall's a monster, but not a complete one.
Been waiting a long time for this. Yhwach
Diana as well
With 17 and 0 ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
, it's time for the write-up of Weissman.
- The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky: George Weissman, the Big Bad of both FC and SC, starts off as a seemingly kind and helpful archaeologist. That is until the very end of FC when he reveals himself as an evil wizard who was manipulating Joshua and the other protagonists even before the game started properly. A high-ranking member of the secret organization of Ouroboros, Weissman has the desire to remake the world damaged by the cruelty of humans in his own image. He was behind the massacre of the village of Hamel, which claims the life of Joshua's sister and Loewe's lover Karin. This in turn sparked the Hundred Days War that effected the life of the main protagonist Estelle and created the events of the game. Weissman then had Joshua brainwashed to become a ruthless, cold-blooded assassin, who slaughtered countless politicians and other influential people who were in Weissman's way. After failing to assassinate Estelle's father Cassius, Weissman attempted to have Joshua himself assassinated for his failure. At the end of FC, Weissman restores Joshua's lost memories and gleefully observes as he goes through an emotional trauma. Towards the end of SC, Weissman pursues the ancient city of Liberl Ark in the hopes of obtaining the ancient artifact Aureole and merge himself with it. Manipulating Joshua's mind once again, Weissman attempts to have him execute Estelle so that he can free him from his mind spell and enjoy seeing him break emotionally. Despite considering himself as the savior of all mankind, Weissman is completely blinded by his own sadism and hypocrisy, even to the point that he doesn't even realize that most of the events caused by the humanity are the cause of his own actions.
Edit: GOD, how did this become so long?? I'm gonna take my time discarding bits of the draft, then post it again.
Edit 2: Removed a couple useless sentences. Is it now short enough to pass?
edited 5th Aug '16 9:46:18 AM by Kookosbanaani
for Krall. He seems to be somewhat upset when Manas decides to stay behind to fight off the Enterprise crew, implying that Krall does care about Manas. During his Motive Rant, he mentions being outraged that the Federation made peace with the Xindi and Romulans after Krall saw his comrades die in battle against them, so there's that too.
to Krall
Extenuating circumstances did make him the way he was and it wasn't entirely his choice or character I guess, so I'll change my vote on him to .
In the meantime though, one could argue that his mutation is what made Ajax the way he was, so the same thing could almost apply.
edited 5th Aug '16 9:33:12 AM by futuremoviewriter
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Weissmann's entry is still too long...like, substantially so.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Krall doesn't qualify in my eyes. I'll give a yes to Diana.
I'll be handling any discussion on whether or not anybody in Suicide Squad counts, Joker among them.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ok, what about now?
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Diana. She's not EXTREMELY horrible, but with what she's working with, she's as bad as she can be, and she stands out.
'No' to Krall. Haven't seen the film, but I've read in various places that he's meant to be at least somewhat sympathetic, and not in the "Alternative Character Interpretation" way.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Wild Child
Diana
Krall.
edited 5th Aug '16 9:58:27 AM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Still lengthy, but manageable. Please add it here and I'll play with it this weekend. Diana, BTW.
edited 5th Aug '16 10:17:22 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Fell behind on the forum. What work is this Krall guy from?
Star Trek: Beyond.
Krall seems like a clear no to me. His plan makes little sense, but he seems to genuinely believe that the Federation needs to struggle to become better. He seems like he's gone completely insane from seeing everyone die around him.
Also, his whole plan revolves around avenging his crew, right?
edited 5th Aug '16 12:05:01 PM by Camberf
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
My copy of Book 7 of Wolfsmund arrived today 
Expect an effortpost in two weeks if anyone counts (though I'd be surprised if anyone matches up with Wolfram).
edited 5th Aug '16 12:26:46 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
One little mistake I accidentally left on Weissman's entry: His last name has two n letters (Weissmann).
edited 5th Aug '16 12:30:11 PM by Kookosbanaani
I haven't seen the film, but to Krall, from what I've read he's too sympathetic to count
Lizzid people!
- Lights Out (2016): A sociopath since the day she was born, Diana is sent to a mental institution after she played mind games with her father, ultimately causing him to kill himself. While there, she manipulates a depressed Sophie into becoming friends with her, and became physically abusive towards her, going as far as to break her legs in an unprovoked attack. As a ghost, she latches herself onto Sophie, enslaving her in the process. Wanting Sophie to herself, she murders both of her husbands when they attempted to heal their wife's mind, and she stalks and terrorizes Becca and Martin, eventually opting to kill them in utter defiance of Sophie's demands. When two police officers are alerted on a potential break in, they go to investigate; Diana savagely murders both of the officers, and attempts to kill Becca in front of Sophie. Self-serving and hostile, Diana sought complete control over Sophie's body, and would murder anyone who came in her way.
edited 5th Aug '16 2:51:36 PM by AustinDR
to Diana.
Definite to Krall. I genuinely felt for the guy, and his Freudian Excuse felt real to me, as did his regret for leaving Manas behind. It's a terrible thing to be deprived of your purpose in life, and spending a century abandoned by the people you fought and bled for combined with mutating into a hideous monster because of the only thing keeping you alive would drive just about anybody insane. He seems to me to be a tragic deconstruction of a Blood Knight.
