Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Ugh. 3 seasons and 39 episodes of Under the Dome later, and, unless we can count characters after personality-alteration, not one contender.

One of the few reasons I continued watching this…interesting…show, to keep an eye out for contenders, and even it brought forth nothing.

I. Am. Disgusted.

edited 10th Sep '15 9:28:32 PM by Ravok

Uh, no offense, but that's really not the attitude to take towards this trope, at least not if you're involved in the cleanup effort.

Sorry, should've been more specific about what I meant. Look again for more deatil.

Finally got the chance to watch "The Round File" the episode of The Closer featuring Judd Whaley, the villain who is currently on the list alongside Philip Stroh. Am not sure as to whether he's a keeper or not, and he wasn't discussed here, so I thought I'd bring him up.

Who is Judd Whaley? What has he done?

Whaley is the manager at Summerview Nursing Home. For every client in the home who can afford to pay full price (as opposed to being on Medicaid), he receives a bonus. After one patient's death nets him 2500 dollars, Whaley begins using arsenic to poison elderly, sick patients whom nobody cares about, and who cannot afford to pay full price. He kills a total of seven people, earning a grand total of just under 20 000 dollars for himself.

When one of the residents, Donald Baxter, a retired crime reporter, grows suspicious about the goings on at Summerview, Whaley has him diagnosed as paranoid and dosed with anti-psychotics to keep him quiet. In the end, Mr. Baxter goes off his meds and makes his way to the police, kicking off an investigation that sees Whaley jailed.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

Whaley has a total of seven in his bodycount, which is relatively high for a single episode villain, particularly given that he has only been killing for seven months. Had he continued on, he might well have racked up a bodycount to match that of Stroh or Weller (as is he's 3 or 4 behind Stroh, depending on whether you count attempted murders).

That said, Whaley does have competition. Doris Osgood killed 6 people. DB Walter Jr. killed 6 and attempted 7. Danny Jones killed 9 and tried for 10 and 11—-it should also be noted that unlike Whaley, Jones’ murders involved a great deal of torture (I'll be rewatching his episode and bringing him up at a later date).

Overall, I think Whaley just misses the heinous bar. Several one episode villains match him, and the multiple episode villains outstrip him significantly.

Does he have any redeeming qualities?

Maybe. Whaley tries to justify his crimes on the basis that he was eliminating people whose quality of life was low, and allowing new residents who could make better use of the facilities to move in. Now, money was definitely his main motive, but given that he seems genuinely surprised that the police arrest him after hearing the above explanation it's possible that he believed it, or has convinced himself to believe it after the fact.

Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

There's no excuse, but Whaley does seem sincerely stunned when the police arrest him after his confession. He actually seems to expect that they'll let him go so long as he promises not to "expedite anymore deaths". Others might disagree, but to me that's evidence of either a severely compromised ability to recognize moral standards or one hell of a sense of entitlement. I lean towards the former because Whaley honestly doesn't seem to think he did anything wrong, and while he's not insane in the legal sense, in might still be mitigating towards his qualifications here (lord knows we've cut for less). At the very least, it makes him a less extreme sort of criminal than many of the others on the show, who know that explanations like that aren't going to cut it.

Final verdict?

Judd Whaley just misses qualifying in my opinion. He's a bastard, but his bodycount isn't unique and his surprise at actually being arrested makes me question whether he really thought through what he was doing.

edited 10th Sep '15 10:21:36 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Yeah, honestly to me it's like "Who's more of a bastard? A nazi who slaughters Jews by the hundreds and is a bastard to his family, or a Soviet who nukes entire planets killing billions.". When the heinous standard is as cut and dry as that, I don't see any reason how a villain who, despite having a large bodycount for his own episode, could compete with the Big Bad who has murdered far more people. Hence why a regular murderer or rapist probably wouldn't make the cut in say Gundam or Berserk, even though they would easily qualify anywhere else.

Close but not heinous enough. A shame, too. He sounds like a real asshole.

Also, I don't think Under The Dome (the book by Stephen King, not the show) had any examples either. I'm pretty sure anyone that was discussed was deemed not heinous enough in the 'Kingverse having to contend with mass murderers and serial rapists.

edited 10th Sep '15 10:27:55 PM by Klavice

I'll say 'cut' to The Closer example.

Though, his "surprise" makes me wonder, how do gauge villains who are Obliviously Evil? Guys like Shou Tucker for example. He doesn't seem to have any form of recognition that what he did was wrong, so how do we "distinguish" stuff like Tucker from this Closer guy in the whole,"Whaaat? You're arresting me for killing 5 people? I aint done nothing wrong! Huh? Yeah, I drowned 'em all in a sack, but you can't arrest me for that! I'll sue you for unlawful arrest and brutality!" thing?

NOTE: I am NOT arguing for Tucker's cut at all. Dude's a jackass. Just trying to more fully understand how we deal with these things.

One thing we can do is take a look at what they've done. There's after all a difference between poisoning elderly people in their sleep, and magically fusing your own daughter with her dog. One is comparatively painless, the other is a hideous mess that should be a lot harder to rationalize to yourself if you have any moral sense. One's also something you can tell yourself is a mercy killing (even though it's not), while the other is just gruesome.

And of course there are some characters who genuinely don't possess a sense of right and wrong and whom we have to cut on the basis of that.

edited 10th Sep '15 10:59:53 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'll give a cut vote to Ambar'a example, and have another proposition...

The series is called Gate, a manga series based on a novel series, about an interdimensional portal called the Gate opens in Japan, and the forces of The Empire emerge

Only to have their asses royally kicked by the JSDF because surprise, Roman-based fantasy armies don't do well against modern arms. With the genie out of the bottle, Japan puts together a force to recover any captives and also deal with the threat, while negotiating peace.

Who Is He?

The Empire's first prince, Zorzal Caesar, son of Emperor Molt, is a military leader in the Empire. Zorzal is brighter than he looks, and adopted the persona of a hedonistic idiot to make others in the Imperial court underestimate him. Unfortunately, he's kind of played the role too well and it seems to be part of him more than he might like.

Anyways, Zorzal's claim to fame is his military victory over the race known as the Warrior Bunnies. More on that next up, and his raid on Ginza, Japan. His ultimate goal is to succeed his father as the ruler of the Empire.

What's He Done?

Zorzal led an attack on the Warrior Bunnies that was a drawn out, brutal conflict. the Bunnies are all female race who are mostly human except for rabbit ears and tails. When it became apparent the Bunnies were losing, Zorzal allowed their queen Tyuule to surrender as his personal sex slave if he would spare their people. Zorzal took the offer...and then annihilate her people anyways, after lying and informing them that Tyuule sold them out to save her own hide. Only a few escaped, the rest enslaved and massacred.

Zorzal keeps Tyuule as a slave that he regularly rapes and abuses, while gloating to his men she has no idea that her people are dead (he's actually wrong about this). Zorzal also leads the raids on Ginza and enslaves Japanese civilians, with the women selected as sex slaves for him. This bites him badly when the JSDF forces see them.

Freudian Excuse?

None. Zorzal's just a prick with too much privilege and no empathy. Other Empire figures, Emperor included, are pretty reasonable when push comes to shove where Zorzal is insanely arrogant and cruel beyond them.

Redeeming Qualities?

None. When Tyuule trips on their way to a party, Zorzal catches her and tells her to be careful...before commenting her clumsiness could reflect poorly on him. Given his sheer brutality towards her and mocking her behind her back, I'm not even going to entertain the idea he cares about her. Likewise, he's not shown giving a damn about his family or people.

As far as heinous standard goes, Zorzal is the most vile human in Gate by far. The only person who competes with him, thus far, believe it or not, is Tyuule herself.

Now, Tyuule is fully aware Zorzal betrayed her and killed her people. She isn't aware he lied about her to them, and she's taken the fact that the survivors want to kill her for her 'betrayal' very personally. More than that, Tyuule hates the empire beyond all else, and has spent three years flattering and swaying Zorzal to ideas he hasn't even known were hers to begin with (pushing him towards conflict with his father, enhancing his ego, etc)...Tyuule's ultimate plan? She is trying to murder the Japanese hostages as to provoke a war that will see the Empire annihilated.

Now, I find it really hard not to put the blame for this on Zorzal as it is entirely his fault. As much as Tyuule wants the blood of the Empire in the streets, he's responsible for this by, y'know, killing her people and raping her. Furthermore, the rape and sex slavery is a thing that makes Zorzal quite unique, and his body count (and genocide) is the highest in series thus far.

I'd say Zorzal's an easy keep, and that he's responsible for the situation that's led to possible worse bloodshed enhances that.

'''

I'm fighting this terrible urge to say "no" due to the phrase "Warrior Bunnies" but don't worry, I know better. Sounds like an absolute bastard, and a worthy keep, badly named alien races aside.

To be fair, it might just be bad translation.

I also left out that after Zorzal gets decked by a Japanese soldier for having a slave from Japan, he declares he's going to raze their country to the ground for the insult.

• Well, Tyuule has that Freudian Excuse, but Zorzal. "When it became apparent the Bunnies were losing, Zorzal allowed their queen Tyuule to surrender as his personal sex slave if he would spare their people. Zorzal took the offer...and then annihilate her people anyways, after lying and informing them that Tyuule sold them out to save her own hide. Only a few escaped, the rest enslaved and massacred." What a dick.
• So, are we reasonably sure Bleach won't have any more monsters besides Yhwach? If we are, I'll cut Mayuri and merge the other three this weekend.
• How does my rewrite for Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors look?

edited 10th Sep '15 11:52:31 PM by ACW

to Zorzal.

Does Fairy Tail deserve to have it's own Complete Monster page? They currently have a total of four, which is a fair amount (Bleach has four I believe and has its own page) and the manga is still going strong. What do you guys think?

New pages are 5 or more. Only reason I didn't merge Bleach with the others is because Yhwach likely will count (although if Mayuri goes...).

Oh, and Klavice, the book of ...Dome had Big Jim.

edited 11th Sep '15 1:59:47 AM by ACW

Zorzal.

Regarding Under the Dome I can say if anyone is worth discussing, it'd be Jim Renie Junior, for Jumping Off the Slippery Slope in season 3 - he set a new heinous standard by attempting to drown a dozen children - however he had a Freudian Excuse throughout the show and during the first two seasons had a Heel–Face Revolving Door, and during season 3, he casts off any real redeeming qualities but it was only the result of his personality being rewired by an alien parasite (Yeah the third season draws a lot of inspiration from The Tommyknockers).

edited 11th Sep '15 5:16:44 AM by Beast

I've just noticed, Empress Sedessa from the animated film Delgo is counted as a complete monster on the Delgo YMMV page, but isn't included in the animated section.

Was she never discussed (if not she perhaps should be, Delgo is apparently a bad film, but she still sounds pretty evil) or is this just an oversight?

edited 11th Sep '15 5:29:41 AM by MGD107

Scraggle brought her up a few pages ago.

I don't remember why Jennifer Blake aka The Darach's Freudian Excuse hasn't been considered a solid justification. Was she always evil even before Kali tried to kill her or she became a monster only after that ? Did she sacrifice all those innocent victims just for a pity vendetta or for power at the same time ?

Sorry but it's been a long time I watched Teen Wolf

edited 11th Sep '15 6:37:49 AM by ST89

Sedessa was approved; I'm gonna submit her with this week's batch.
I'll let Beast weigh in on Teen Wolf.

I'll admit, having not watched season 3 of Teen Wolf in a while, nor do I have the DVD for it, so I don't remember that much about her, but here's a copy and past of her Freudian Excuse from Wikipedia.

She reveals to Derek her first name was Julia Baccari and she was Kali's Emissary. She and Kali were close, but Kali had attempted to kill her, as part of killing her entire Pack in order to join the Alpha pack. She was able to survive because Kali couldn't bring herself to deliver the final blow. Julia then struggled to the Nemeton, which hadn't had power for a long time. But the sacrifice of a virgin months earlier had given the tree stump a spark of power again, which gave Julia the ability to survive just long enough until help arrived. Eventually, because Kali's attack had left Julia hideously disfigured, she used her talents to disguise herself with a new identity, 'Jennifer Blake'.

Edit: Ignore what I said about shipping.

As far as redeeming qualities go, accoreding to her actress, Jennifer had genuine feelings for Derek Hale, but throughout the season she manipulates him and eventually tries to kill him. Her old friendship with Kali doesn't matter anymore, but to make a long story short, yes, the Darach is out for personal revenge, all her well intentioned arugments are thrown out the window seeing as she becomes a bigger threat then the alpha pack, and she is out to get more powerful but what Teen Wolf villain isn't ? Seriously it's a common trait among them.

edited 11th Sep '15 7:11:05 AM by Beast

Why on Earth did you even bring shipping up?

to Zorzole

You know what? There haven't been too many effortposts this week, so I'm going to effortpost an Under the Dome villain. I really doubt he counts, but I think he warrants discussion and I'd like to see how we handle a situation like this.

Spoilers for the entire series.

What's the work?

Under the Dome is a series about a town trapped, you guessed it, under a dome. The first season was your typical "human threat." The second season, the dome itself started acting antagonistic. Season 3, however, got a little…weird.

Who is he?

James Rennie Jr., A.K.A. "Junior," is the son of "Big" Jim Rennie, and, while for the first two seasons a jerk with a heart of gold (emphasis on the "jerk"), in season 3 he steps up his game when, along with alot of the town, he is "infected" with an alien virus that morphs the victim's personality.

What has he done?

After being infected (Which, unlike most every other townsperson, was his choice), Junior begins assisting the "Queen" alien in taking over the town, eventually becoming her lover. He regularly gets violent with anyone who questions his position as the second-in-command.

Junior takes part in forcing mind-altered people to work in mines digging up alien crystals for the Queen's master plan.

When learning the smartest person in the dome, Joe (a 15-17 year old), wasn't infected, Junior begins forcing him to work on a way out of the dome, and when one of Joe's friends tries to get him away from "The Kinship" (What the infected call themselves), Junior beats her unconscious, then leaves her for the Queen to deal with.

Joe refuses to work on a way out of the dome, so, to motivate him, Junior brutally beats him regularly trying to force him to work.

After Barbie (The protagonist) seemingly comes under The Kinship's control and kills his girlfriend, Junior happily asks him how it felt, and, when Barbie acts suspicious, Junior digs around the area the girl is supposed to be buried and discovers he didn't actually kill her, then rats him out.

He later expresses annoyance at the fact that the girl he wanted as a sex slave is currently being used as a sacrifice for The Kinship.

He then assists the queen in forcibly mind-controlling Sam, his own uncle.

When confronted by his father, who tries to reason with him, Junior taunts and is about to kill him, however his dad escapes.

Later, Junior is captured by the few humans who aren't infected while trying to mercilessly execute his father and one of the heroes, and, faking being "cured", escapes, attempts to kill his father, and murders two guards on his way out.

Realizing the dome is slowly suffocating the town, Junior and Sam come up with the brilliant idea to drown all the elderly in town to conserve oxygen.

They succeed in this, however Junior reveals his other brilliant plan when he approaches the lake with close to 20 children. He reveals to Sam he plans to drown them as well, to save oxygen of course, despite not being ordered to, Sam's disgust at the idea, and the fact that killing the kids would severely affect the Kinship's plans.

When the Queen, reverted back to human, saves the children, Junior tries to kill her for being cured before being knocked unconscious.

A new queen steps up to take the old one's place, and, seeing how close Sam is to becoming the Alpha male, Junior gleefully kills him. Did I mention Sam was his uncle?

The new queen and Junior's plans are revealed. At first, the plan was to open the dome, then infect the entire world and conquer it. However that plan goes off the rails rather quick, so Junior and the queen make a new plan: Flee by themselves, leaving the rest of The Kinship to be exerimented on/ murdered by the military, then start the whole dome process all over again on a different town.

When Junior notices his father and another "rebel" preparing to snipe the new queen, Junior attacks and tries to kill them both before being murdered by his own father.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

Like I said, before season3, he had a heel face revolving thing going on, and was heavily implied to have been abused by his father. However, season 3 altered alot of the townsfolk's mentality, so, anything frm the first two seasons regarding his character was thrown out the window.

Also, the mind-alteraton can be fixed. It's not easy, mind you, but possible, but Junior refuses to even consider going back to being his old, "weak," self, loving the new power and authority he has. And, unlike nearly everyone else part of The Kinship, Junior is perfectly capable of functioning on his own and making his own decisions (the drowning kids thing, for example.)

Heinousness?

Despite only being full- on pure-evil for just one season, Junior has the highest body count (by virtue of drowning the elderly), the biggest plans (help Take Over the World), and the most heinous attempted act in the series ( drowning around 20 under-13 year old kids.)

Final Verdict?

This reminds me of the Megabyte situation, in that, after undergoing a personality change, Junior jumps off that slippery slope and leaps through the Moral event horizon, laughing all the way, but does the change in his personailty affect his possibility to count, is the question. Like, can we count post-change Junior as a separate entity from pre-change Junior?

edited 11th Sep '15 11:45:39 AM by Ravok

No for Junior Rennie. The second he gets his mind altered, his moral agency is impaired and he can't count. This isn't a character gradually abandoning their redeeming traits willingly over time, this is a person whose brain was screwed with against their will.

edited 11th Sep '15 9:06:54 AM by OccasionalExister

Junior Rennie.