During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Professor Gigachad
Directly to the edit request thread.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Mip.
Finalized corrections for Beryl Gut.
P.S. Can't run the risk of unmarked spoilers in YMMV.Fate Grand Order. You mind if I change the entries over there to redirect to Monster.Nasuverse?
Edited by Siegfried1337 on Feb 16th 2022 at 7:39:43 AM
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
The Moron
Last Missing for tonight - tomorrow, we get into the two maybes, but for now, I give you a Dirty Cop extraordinaire.
Who is Chief of Police Jack Sanderson? What does he do?
Sanderson is the Chief of the police department in Ridgeport, Connecticut. Thanks to the city's port, he's basically turned the entire police department into a haven of corruption, skimming cash and goods from the port within the millions of dollars ranges. Accordingly, it's well known for having witnesses to said corruption being beaten or straight up going missing, with Pollock pulling half a dozen of such instances out from records that the PD hasn't made public - and just to top it off, Sanderson has also killed at least two cops in the past, framing them on a paroled killer whose been dead for years.
It got so bad that Paula Deinecher, the city's Deputy Chief, called in a cop she knew in Boston to go undercover in the PD. The underdover, Denise Rogers, was partnered with another rookie, but after she fell for the guy and didn't think he had time to go bad yet, she told him she was investigating corruption. The cop tried to kill her, but Denise ended up killing him first after getting shot for the trouble, getting the FBI involved in the process. When Paula then tries to discreetly inform Jess of the situation, she gets sniped and killed for the trouble, all on Sanderson's orders - and all the while, he pretends to be an ally just trying to recover a falling PD.
Eventually, the FBI manage to find Denise recovering from her bullet wound (though on the verge of death), so a strike team is sent to take her down and the two agents with her - simultaneously, Sanderson takes a cop who doesn't want to be dirty with him and corners Jess in isolation, forcing the cop with him to kill her (he even goes step by step when the cop tells him that she hasn't done it before, all while he tells her that she'll have to do it just like her partner does). The cop comes damn close to doing it, but ultimately her conscience gets the better of her and she kills Sanderson instead.
Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?
He sure puts on one hell of a show of how much he misses the dead cops while he's pretending to be an ally, but considering that he had them killed in the first place, I don't think I need to explain why none of it holds up.
Is he heinous enough?
Everything the Ridgeport Police does tracks back to him, and thus we have a police department full of cops on the take who (at least semi-regularly) beat and kill witnesses to their corruption and kill officers who try to expose or fight their corruption in any way. Just as a final kick in the teeth, he then forces a reluctant cop to kill a friend of hers just to get the heat off him, even taking it step by step, and traumatizing both her and Jess when she's forced to shoot him first. He's the bare minimum for the killers of this show, but I think he does make it if only barely with the way he's corrupted the system for his greedy ends and uses the police and basically his private army.
Final verdict?
Tentative yes - what about you?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
I'd considered proposing Mip myself, but decided against it. him because while he's taken semi-seriously, his character is still built around black comedy.
Edited by rosewood47 on Feb 16th 2022 at 11:13:15 AM
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
mu
Yea to Jack.
Ravok will be handling Littlefinger's writeup.
- Dragon Age 2: Danarius is a powerful Magister of Tevinter and noted to be among the worst of them all. A consummate sadist who abuses his slaves and even murders them for sport and blood magic rituals, Danarius frequently abused Fenris, then named Leto, in all ways, from sexual to psychological. Having Fenris take part in an agonizing Lyrium experiment to make him a weapon, Danarius later had him massacre his own rescuers. Upon hunting Fenris down, if Danarius is successful in taking Fenris back, he destroys his mind to make him a wholly obedient slave.
- Daughter of Shanghai: Mary Hunt is the true leader of the human trafficking ring. A self-described "Businesswoman," Hunt has poor immigrants smuggled into the US and sold into slavery. When her shipments are threatened, she has them drowned instead. When the heroine's father gets close to the ring, Hunt has him murdered, attempted to have anyone else killed who may expose her.
- Temple
- Earl Bittiker is a vicious militiaman and founder the Republican Army of Texas who was drummed out of the military for rape. Having succumbed to a doomsday cultism, Bittiker leads his men to steal the powerful idol to power the Supernova after several murders. Intending on wiping out a third of humanity in one blast, Bittiker intends to completely erase the world for the sole satisfaction of seeing it burn.
- Hernando Pizarro, brother and lieutenant of Francisco Pizzaro, is a sadistic psychopath of a Conquistador who leads his forces across the Incan Empire. Women are forced into brothels and enslaved, children sold into slavery, men tortured and maimed with Hernando having entire villages tortured or massacred for the sport of it. Locating the priest Alberto Santiago and his friend Prince Renco who have taken the idol, Hernando intends to recover it and then torture the two slowly to death simply for the inconvenience.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Jack
to Jack. to Mips
Professor Gigachad
Yes to Jack. No to Mip, fails the Baseline heinous standard even if we take him seriously.
Out of curiosity should we put a bullet point that says how many murders or attempted murders a character must commit to even be considered? I'd be all for saying if a character has committed at least 5 on screen murders they have a shot but this varies based on the heinous standard of each work.
Goku Black
Jack
Professor Gigachad
I remember it was said usually four is enough to pass the baseline.
Learnist, Silas, Bittiker, Hernando, Sphinx, Denton, YHVH, Louis, Velana and Sanderson
Mip
Oh also as the one who originally did Ryan Rhodes I like the expansion.
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Feb 16th 2022 at 11:19:11 AM
I found this on Manhunt's page:
- Hate Crimes Are a Special Kind of Evil: The Skinz are a white nationalist gang who target and lynch non-white people and the gang itself is composed of white power skinheads, neo-Nazis, neo-confederates, and the Klu Klux Klan. Lionel Starkweather, the director of the snuff film industry that has conscripted James Earl Cash into their films, absolutely hates this gang and praises Cash whenever he kills them.
I haven't played the game but considering that the aforementioned Lionel Starkweather is one of the current keepers, this is a bit concerning, so I decided to do a bit of research and this is what Starkweather says about the Skinz gang to the player character, Cash:
The part where he commands Cash to kill them and where he gives praise after each kill doesn't sound very mitigating to me because he is a snuff film director and he simply wants gruesome kills for the camera and he commands Cash to kill other gangs as well for the same purpose and he gives praise when he kills members of other gangs as well.
However, the part where he calls them "dumb-assed supremacist bastards" and says they "always blame others for their inadequacies" might actually be mitigating considering we cut Injustice Joker for a very similar reason (hating Nazis for being bigots).
So, could someone who has played this game give their opinion about this because I couldn't find any evidence this was discussed before?
Edited by WatTambor on Feb 16th 2022 at 10:41:19 PM
Professor Gigachad
I did some research on Lionel Starkweather and it looks like he was grandfathered in so without some reason to keep I will say cut as that does sound like a problem.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
TBQH that quote sounds like Starkweather hates them for being stupid, not anything moral.
Caesar
Agreed, that doesn't have the same "oomph" to me as Injustice!Joker expressing genuine disgust for Nazis, it just feels like Starkweather shitting on them for being dumbasses who are irresponsible, lol
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Goku Black
Isn't Starkweather's dialogue mostly like that. Where he's a dick to everyone.
He also drops slurs all across the game?
- Hates Everyone Equally: Starkweather insults everyone in his movie, using all kinds of slurs to increase the anger and violence. He also uses sexist slurs by comparing Cash to a "teenage girl" who wants to be chased by men
Professor Gigachad
I am not sure about the argument about it being him looking down but if he does also use slurs then yeah that would be more hypocritical switching to a Keep.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Played Manhunt. Not mitigating.
He's literally making a snuff film to have loads of people butchered. He just considers racism stupid, not for moral reasons but because he thinks it's dumb.
OK, after hearing the arguments I agree with a keep.
So where do I put the proposed addition to the FAQ? Is there a sandbox, or do I have to take it directly to the edit requests thread?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.