During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lies and Violence!
Yes to Megatron, Alice, the quartet, Kuthuman, Lou & Kenny. No to Trager.
Feel a bit weird about doing this when we just had 5 two pages ago, but it's been an hour since the last one was posted, which I think is enough time passed for another.
Speaking of, another one from Skulduggery Pleasant I missed! This one coming from the short story Friday Night Fights.
Who is the Promoter?
A random mortal who discovered magic, the Promoter decided to set up secret death matches between magical creatures, attracting large crowds over the years as his operation increased and he captured more monsters.
Valkyrie, due to shenanigans, is captured and thrown in a cage with the vampire Caelan. He explains what's going on, specifically noting that the vampire competitors are fed humans before every match so that they're at their strongest. Fortunately for her, he's going on a hunger strike in the hopes that they just won't send him out in his weakened state (this does not work).
The Promoter pits Caelan up against another vampire — BTW, it's taboo for vampires to kill their own kind, something he explains in detail to his customers. Usually when the moon comes up they transform into bloodthirsty monsters. There's a serum to prevent this, but the Promoter only gives the competitors half the necessary amount. This keeps them weak and controllable, but still in a state where their bloodlust overpowers all logic.
Since she wasn't eaten, Valkyrie is thrown into the middle of the match as a third competitor. She just uses her magic to throw the vampires into the stands, where they eat the Promoter and a bunch of others.
Heinousness?
Of the non-"bring about the apocalypse" dudes:
- Bubba Moon is a sorcerer — not a particularly powerful or influential one, but still a sorcerer more dangerous and long-lived than the average human — who has killed hundreds of children over decades, aiding an effort to start a war between mortals and sorcerers (though he doesn't know the specifics of how he's helping).
- Kitana is a mortal girl who goes on a murder spree the minute she gets powers, lacking the bodycount of the others but more than making up for it in pettiness, sheer savagery, and the clear intent to keep killing for as long as she can.
With that said? The Promoter, a random mortal who only knows the barest of bones about magic, still makes it.
- Forces sapient creatures to fight to the death on a weekly basis.
- Feeds the vampires live humans before every match.
- Keeps them in dank, miserable prisons.
- Makes it a point to mention how he wants to rid the land of these "parasites."
- Forces the vampires to fight half-transformed — a state previously shown to be one of agonizing pain. When vampires normally turn into their monstrous forms they remove their skin like a loose-fitting shirt, whereas this is more akin to... well, ripping off your skin.
He's noted to have been operating for years, so he's probably racked up a considerable bodycount of people fed to his multiple vampire champions. Combined with the unique niche of death matches and the above-mentioned cruelties he puts them through, this random asshole muggle more than stands out.
Others
No one else counts: his head enforcer dude doesn't get much characterization other than "head enforcer dude," and the audience members are just audience members.
Caelan himself is an interesting case; he's a parody of the angsting "I'm such a monster" teen vampire trope, and gets considerably more obsessed with Valkyrie over the course of the series until he tries to kill her. It's later revealed this has happened with multiple girls before, each time ending with him stalking, torturing, and murdering them. However, there may be agency issues (it's difficult to tell how much is him legitimately being unable to control his monster half and how much is him being a whiney incel), and even then we're never given an explicit bodycount, so no go there.
A total has-been.
@Clown-Face: Was not aware of the second EP. Thanks for clearing that up. So it's esatblished to not be in violation of any rule if a fanwork character is re-proposed by another person? Wonder why it hadn't happened with that one fanfic Medusa yet.
Edited by ANewMan on Jan 26th 2022 at 7:54:15 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
The Timeless One
I've only seen the first Tetsuo: The Iron Man film(hugely underrated) and it seems each of the trilogy is in it's own continuity. This kind of complicates Yatsu because he's at least somewhat sympathetic in the first one. It's shown he was a homeless child who was brutally beaten with a metal pipe by some sadistic shitbag, and that slowly changed him mentally and physically. He's implied to be in constant pain and the Salaryman running him over was the last straw.
It doesn't at all justify turning everything into a metal hell but I think it's worth considering. Than again I felt bad for Koba too, so that may be the villain apologist in me talking.
"I am the lord of Purity, who tolerates no deviation." My first online story
Yes to the Frightful Four, Kuthuman, Lou & Kenny and Promoter. No to Trager.
I just watched a movie released last month, on Hulu in the US and on Netflix everywhere else. It's called Mother/Android and it deals with android servants turning against humanity and wanting to destroy their former masters. A young couple Georgia and Sam run for their lives after their android Bulter murders everyone else at a house party. Georgia is pregnant and fleeing some androids and seems to run into a kind stranger...
Who is Arthur? What has he done?
Arthur is the seemingly kind stranger who saves Georgia from the androids, the androids captured Sam and take him to a house to be tortured. Arthur takes Georgia to his secret hideout and cries about his dead family and friends saying '' Their all dead''. Arthur says the difference between androids and humans is humans are able to feel love, while androids only care about achieving their objectives. Georgia wants to save Sam and Arthur begs her not to go, but when she insists, he gives her a cloak with tech that makes her invisible to androids. Georgia saves Sam and is about to give birth, Arthur takes Sam and Georgia to Boston and Georgia is in the hospital with her baby. Isn't that nice of Arthur.....
Except Arthur is not human, he is an android and this is an elaborate scheme. The cloak doesn't do anything, the androids are ordered to ignore anyone wearing the cloak. After delivering Georgia and Sam to Boston, Arthur allows androids to enter Boston. Georgia investigates what is going on and is confronted by Arthur. Arthur cries again saying '' Their all dead'' but his cries slowly turn into mocking laughter, with Arthur saving androids were designed to play on human emotions to better comfort their human masters and Arthur has been using that skill to manipulate Georgia so he could get past Boston's defenses and into the city. Now Arthur demands that Georgia get out of the way so he can destroy the EMP generator protecting the city, so it can be overrun by androids who will kill everyone in the city and Arthur says he will kill Georgia's baby right in front of her if she tries to stop him. Georgia manages to destroy Arthur and then activates the EMP generator and saves the city.
Is he heinous by the standards of the story?
Arthur seems like the closest thing the androids have to a leader, he is the only one with a personality and he seems like the mastermind behind a lot of their actions if he is not in charge of the android torture house, he certainly knows about it and uses it to his advantage, working with the androids who run it, frankly, I think he is the one in charge and his plan to have androids overrun Boston would have killed millions.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
The big question is does Arthur have moral agency? I think he does, we don't why the androids turned against humanity, the only thing we get is some dialogue from Arthur about the androids hacking their own programming. But Arthur knows enough about human emotions to manipulate them and is mocking laughter to show actually sadism on his part.
Besides that, there is nothing. Arthur doesn't care about other androids and his kind act is just an act, his true personality is pure malice.
Final Verdict?
Keep him.
Edited by Overlord on Jan 26th 2022 at 9:19:30 AM
The Timeless One
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
the torturer couples. I hope those kids go fuck up that shitty torture porn character Art the Clown next.
Sigh Characters once thought of as Generic Doomsday Villains have been reevaluated, and I want to do a short EP.
But seriously, what the fuck am I doing with my life to post her?
Goddamnit, let’s get this over with: Naruto’s ultimate villain, for whatever that’s worth or something.
Who is Kaguya Otsutsuki?
Bunny goddess, alien, further proof that Kishimoto doesn’t know how to write women, whatever. Kaguya was once part of an alien race that sought to harvest the God Tree from Earth, which would exterminate humanity, who at this point were warring states. Kaguya was supposed to be sacrificed to the tree, but she rebelled. And then she ate the fruit from the tree and became the first being to use Chakra, ending the wars between clans of humanity and uniting everyone under her.
She had children. She realized that those children could also use Chakra. Her response? To kill everyone by merging herself with the God Tree and becoming the Ten Tails, threatening to destroy the world. So said children, Hagamoro and Hamura, fought against her and sealed her on the moon, with the Ten Tails’ essence being sealed inside Hagamoro himself.
She then had a third child immediately, Black Zetsu, her will incarnate who was originally Madara’s will until suddenly he wasn’t. Black Zetsu manipulated every tragedy, every death and Shinobi history, just for the sole sake of summoning Kaguya back from the dead.
The Ten Tails was resurrected by Obito and Madara Uchiha, and it proceeds to rampage against the armies of ninja that try to stop them. Obito and then Madara take on the role as the Ten Tails Jinchuriki, both with the goal of casting the Infinite Tsukyomi, enveloping everyone in the world in a dream world, which Madara cast. Unbeknownst to them, Kaguya would then start enveloping them into the tree, gradually turning them into White Zetsu.
So Madara cast the spell, and so almost everyone was caught, and then Black Zetsu stabbed Madara in the back and turned him into Kaguya. She then fought against Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi, and Obito, but despite her power, she proved a hideously incompetent fighter. She killed Obito, and then granted Kakashi his Sharingan. And then Kaguya got defeated and sealed in the moon again. Naruto then threw Black Zetsu into the moon to end his schemes. And then Sasuke realized that she would suck as a final villain, so took that role.
The anime expands on her backstory. She fell in love with an emperor, Tenji, and lived among his people. However, she killed some hostile diplomats from another land against Tenji’s wishes, who had her hunted down. In the fight, Kaguya’s friend, Aino, was killed, and in response, she ate the forbidden fruit and cast the Infinite Tsukyomi.
Years later, she raised her and Tenji’s children, Hagamoro and Hamura, as she kept most of humanity as food for the tree except for a small percentage of which she would resurrect in order to rule over and feed back into the tree later. Her sons discovered this, and then she went berserk and tried to kill everyone with the God Tree.
Heinousness?
In the original series, she kind of tops it. She’s indirectly responsible for everything in the series, and plans to assimilate everyone as White Zetsus, killing off humanity to turn them into her personal army.
Her excuse is anime only, and while it is initially quite understandable (they suspect that a lot her villainy was still motivated by Tenji's perceived betrayal in the flashback), even then that only goes so far. By the present day, she gives no indication that she still cares about anyone she used to love before she ate the fruit.
GDV?
Kaguya in the manga barely, and I mean barely, has enough personality to make it. She’s The Stoic, so naturally she doesn’t say or express much. But she has a clear plan and clear methods. Yes, she’s flatter than paper, but she still has…barely enough personality I think. It’s just a case where she shouldn’t have been written as The Stoic.
Other mitigating qualities?
She cried when she saw how Naruto and Sasuke reminded her of Hagamoro and Hamura. And then she said that she despised them. So make of that what you will.
Her motive was eventually revealed to be her fearing her clan enough that she would turn humanity into her personal army. The fearing part is understandable, but she still tried to wipe out humanity to save her own skin, so make that as you will as well.
Verdict?
Let’s be honest, she might very well count, as much as I hate to admit it.
I’d imagine this will cause a lot of arguments, but I want to sleep. Good fucking night.
Lighty, I will be so grateful if you find a way to shoot her down.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jan 26th 2022 at 12:07:57 PM
to Promoter and Arthur and you know what to Kaguya as well
Edited by G-Editor on Jan 26th 2022 at 12:18:18 PM
The Emperor of Evil!
to Promoter and Arthur but a tentative one for Kaguya
Woagh
to the Promoter and Arthur.
Gonna wait for more opinions for Moon Bunny Lady.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Mika Misono
Abstain of Kaguya.
Mika Mika Mika Mika
The Dragon
Leaning no on Kaguya, but I'll hear out on arguments.
The Emperor of Evil!
By the way, Kill la Kill - Nui Harime has a page now.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Jan 26th 2022 at 1:26:51 PM
I'm a no to Kaguya. Black Zetsu flat out states she has some lingering feelings for Hagoromo and Hamura, her worst deeds are pushed over by people like Isshiki and Momoshiki now, and even if we discount Filler, the revelations in the manga have taken her right out for me...
If we take her anime backstory as in any way canon, she's a straight up tragic villain and Hagoromo even says something happened to change her from a kind person into the monster she became. As it is now, she was going to be used as a sacrifice by Isshiki to the God Tree and most of her evil deeds are to combat the Otsutsuki to defend her own territory...
Im not so willing to discount a backstory that absolutely shapes her isolation, mistrust from humanity and shows her mourning someone who died to save her without ever renouncing it after being betrayed by the man she loved. Even if that was filler, Kaguya's deeds are completely exceeded by other Otsutsuki and her being so flat means she lacks the cruel and sadistic flourishes they do.
Momoshiki tries to wipe out the land of fire and wiped out another planet, being introduced munching on a fruit there. Isshiki has all of Kara's deeds, horrific experiments, tons of murders the world over, implanting his Karma on test subjects that killed them, and the Otsutsuki kill worlds as a matter of course.
Kaguya can't be held accountable for Black Zetsu's deeds directly, and her goal? Turn everyone into White Zetsu. Eh, kinda tame, really next to Isshiki and Momoshiki who explicitly plan to murder everyone.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 26th 2022 at 10:39:42 AM
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Kag
Does anyone have anything to say about this?
Edited by nwotyzal on Jan 26th 2022 at 10:46:50 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I was thinking waiting for the guy who did Yatsu give a say, I remember seeing Yatsu's effort post saying something about his past.
I'd be find hearing Yatsu if there's a trilogy showing him as waaaay more sympathetic.
Woagh
Shinji, Junior, Mengele, Megatron, Alice, Nelson, Catlyn, James, Maria, Kuthuman, Promoter and Arthur
Trager and Kaguya
As for Lou and Kenny, how explicit is it that they don't care about each other? Because the hesitation scene is giving me serious pause.
Imperfect Disgrace
Promoter and Arthur.
Kaguya; even without being a Generic Doomsday Villain, she has some clear-cut redeeming qualities and is outclassed by others of her kind.
Edited by Misry6 on Jan 26th 2022 at 11:08:16 AM
Just an empty void…
Mika Misono
ok, Kaguya.
Kaguya
Almost done with fast and furious, I have been taking way too long on that
Promoter and Arthur
No to Kaguya.
Switching to no to Trager.