During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Kang and Ravok’s 2 guys
Edited by OrrorSANESS on Dec 20th 2021 at 4:05:10 AM
So, yes to Kang and here's from a film...very dear to my heart:
What's the work?
Dog Soldiers is the story of Cooper, a british squaddie out with his mates in the Scottish highlands on a seeming training exercise. Cooper had gotten on the bad side of the vicious officer...Captain Richard Ryan. And...
Something is wrong in these highlands.
Who is Richard Ryan?
Ryan is an asshole. A smug, nasty Hate Sink who opens the film putting Cooper through grueling exercise and gives him an order: shoot one of the special forces dogs, to Cooper's absolute shock and horror. Cooper says he won't shoot the dog. So Ryan does, prompting a furious Cooper to attack him...
Some time later, the team are in the highlands where there've been...some creepy happenings. People have died. Gone missing...it's the middle of nowhere, not much to say about it all. In fact? The culprit is a werewolf and Ryan wants to capture and weaponize it. And for this, he plans to send in Cooper's squad and let them be slaughtered so he might roll in and capture the werewolf.
The issue is there isn't one wolf. There's about five, the Uath family. And the werewolves can think. They double back, slaughter Ryan's troops and siege Cooper's squad into a cabin in the woods with the help of a naturalist named Megan. An injured Ryan proceeds to needle Cooper and the group while hiding the fact he's been bitten...even when it becomes clear this makes him aprofound danger.
The team makes a dicovery: the werewolves won't leave and go home. The cabin IS their home and they need to kill them all. One by one, the wolves pick them off, as they fight back...and then the change hits Ryan who tries to slaughter all of them, but is stabbed with a sword in the cabin and flees.
By the end, only Cooper is left, facing the werewolf Ryan who tries to murder him quite painfully, by forcing the sword still stuck in him through Cooper's mouth...when the family dog, bonded to Cooper, bites Ryan's leg...allowing Cooper to impale him with a silver letter opener.
And then Cooper lifts his gun. "Think it's over? It is now." And blows Ryan's brains out.
Mitigating issues?
You know, for a long time I wasn't sure on Ryan, but? Ryan tried to get Cooper's entire squad killed, did get his own squad killed. Not intentionally but he's sure not sorry. Then he tries to kill the entire squad and Megan in werewolf form and kill Cooper in the most agonizing way possible, weaponize lycanthropy...
And he shoots the poor dog at the start. Yeah, Ryan is an asshole. Large enough bodycount and...he has zero good qualities. When he becomes a werewolf and before? Ryan is a cold, heartless bastard with no good qualities. He views his men as expendable, is an icy, mocking prick and even if he has a point in one scene that a soldier dragged off by the wolves is dead and going after him is pointless, Ryan shows nothing but pure cruelty.
The only competitors are the Uaths who have a high count themselves but seem to love each other as a family...but they do kill folks and keep the bodies in the cellar to butcher for meat. Still, Ryan's only one guy without the pack and a recent wolf as well.
Conclusion?
I'd give Ryan a yes.
The Dragon
Sure to Ryan.
The Emperor of Evil!
to Ryan.
And one other from Grimm Fairy Tales, from the Grimm Tales anthology...
From the Grimm Fairy Tales 2018 holiday special...I give you: Shep Chodosh.
Who is Shep?
From the standalone story, Shep C Hodosh is like...the nicest guy ever. He has a nice home with a nice dog, he works at a nice company...his co-workers love him. He brings in cookies and on Christmas? Shep just goes all out. In fact, at his company, he sends presents to kids and makes Santa calls to children, posing as Santa to wish kids a merry Christmas. Ain't he grand?
Then at work...Shep gets a call. And then another...calls that are creepy. Disturbing...he can't trace them...And then he checks his basement...
Shep is a serial child murderer with maybe dozens of victims. He uses his job to locate kids, find out their addresses, kidnap them, lock them in the basement, torture and murder them....and he's locked in on a little boy named Eric. When he gets another call, the vice on the other end says he "won't let you do it to Eric," freaking Shep out...
He soon learns the calls are coming from his house. Namely a boy named Benny he already murdered who was revived by the goddess of death, Keres, for payback...Benny greets Shep and informs him he's revived the others...
And they're here to have a merry Christmas...Benny shoves Shep down, screaming, into the waiting arms of his many victims...
Mitigating issues?
Nope. Shep presets as a nice, jovial sweet guy who loves making kids happy for Christmas. And then, boom, he's a serial killer, in a standalone with numerous child victims. He seems to love his dog, only to reveal later he doesn't. He snarls at it, calling her a 'useless fleabag' he only bought to ensure nobody goes into his basement at work.
Need I say more?
Conclusion?
Yes to Shep
Professor Gigachad
Shep sounds okay but I am wondering how do we treat the heinous standard of Grimm Fairy Tales is it the entire franchise or be each comic book?
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 20th 2021 at 6:49:53 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Grimm Fairy Tales proper is one universe.
Grimm Tales of Terror, where Shep is from, is largely standalone horror stories. There are aspects that explicitly contradict the main universe, such as the Dracula Scraggle got up, where the Grimm canon Dracula (And Grimm vampires) are VERY different. Keres has been worked into the main canon, but the Tales of Terror stuff don't often have much connection to the wider verse.
Even then, Shep might keep. He's an ordinary human who's murdered and tortured dozens of children.
Professor Gigachad
Alright in the case Shep.
Shep (wait, so are the Grimm Tales of Terror connected to the GFT like the Multiverse from DC or Marvel?) NVM: Misread Lighty's comment
Edited by nwotyzal on Dec 20th 2021 at 6:54:47 AM
Yes to Ryan and Shep.
Ryan, Shep, and Kang
Yes to Shep and Ryan.
Hey, in terms of bad movies with keepers, I got a doozy of one...
What's the setting?
Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever is a film rather notorious for how it just gets everything wrong. The disjointed story follows Lucy Liu's Sever, a rogue secret agent, kidnapping the son of the DIA's leader and making off with him in a needlessly overcomplicated revenge scheme. They send Antonio Banderas—Ecks—after her. Much silly fighting and techno music ensues.
The Big Bad of the film is said DIA director himself.
What has Robert Gant done?
Corrupt to the core, Robert is behind a whole lot of shady shenanigans in the so-called name of security, including research on a perfect assassin. Robert, for years, has been buying off unwanted Chinese girls to raise them as killers without conscience or morality. Sever was one of these agents, and when she decided to try and have a family, Gant had her family, including her young son, killed all to spite her for "breaking profile."
When Sever wipes out a security detail full of his men, Gant subjects the surviving mook with an overcomplicated form of You Have Outlived Your Usefulness; giving the mook a backwards-shooting gun and instructing him to shoot himself with it, so that when the mook turns the gun on Gant, he shoots himself. Classic, I guess.
Ecks, meanwhile, hates Robert's guts because Gant also stole his family—not metaphorically, but literally. Gant faked the death of Ecks' wife, then married her and adopted her son Michael to use him for his new plan; insta-kill nanobots. Dissatisfied with his trained killer program, Gant now simply wants to redefine the assassin market with nano-devices that can cause instant heart attacks, selling these to cause many, many deaths.
Gant is storing this device in Michael, fully knowing he's endangering the kid's life. He goes one step further than that and gleefully threatens to kill both Michael and his own wife to Ecks, gloating about how he's all about "power and profit!" to the end of his life at one of his own nano-devices.
Any mitigating factors?
Gant's not exactly winning first prize for "most evil baddie in an action flick"—Sever herself notably whacks a dozen or so mooks whose only real crime is being associated with the bad guy—but I think the personal, scummy crimes just put him over. He kills his own minions, he's guilty of familicide, raising kids as assassins, he uses his own adopted son as an incubator for a murder device, and he's happily willing to murder both the kid and his own wife just to hurt Ecks.
Bizarrely enough, he's even worse in the original (far less hackneyed) screenplay and the resultant GBA adaptation, so he's probably worth independent posts there. For the final product, though? I think he's just pulling through. He's written like a two-dimensional scumbag and his actions, if barely, take him over the baseline standard.
Conclusion?
Keeper. Not at all an investing one, but there you are.
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 20th 2021 at 8:52:18 AM
And Gant's a yea
Gant (One of the few movies where the tie-in game was better)
Edited by nwotyzal on Dec 20th 2021 at 8:03:26 AM
to Robert.
Oh that fucking movie. Yeah, to Gant. Figured it had a keeper.
Worst rated on RT by the way: 0% based on 118 REVIEWS.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 20th 2021 at 8:25:20 AM
Best Smile
Joker, Hemi, Jasper, Blood Hunter, Majestic, Romelau, Lynex, Time Eater Kang, Richard Ryan, Shep, Robert.
Has anyone seen The Gentlemen? I haven't, McConaughey's too smug for my tastes. But from the little scenes I see Henry Golding's Dry Eye, he seems to pass the mark. Does he have any redeeming qualities in other scenes?
The wifi here sucks
Dry Eye was up but he was determined to not be bad enough
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Ultimate Moral Compass
Richard, Shep, and of course Gant from the worst movie with a surprisingly decent GBA game of all time.
Edited by nwotyzal on Dec 20th 2021 at 3:23:20 AM