During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Question: would This image of The Upside Down Man be satisfactory? (The main page image, I linked the page because of the hassle last time I tried to put in an image)
I can tell which one you mean and I like it!
Shin Megami Tensei IV
So, uh, that new SW manga. I can take it?
Watch me destroying my country
New EP, after a consult with ImperialMajestyXO:
What is the work?
This is making a move is a Scream 4 fanfic (can be read here). It focuses on Kirby Reed after she survives being stabbed by Charlie Walker near the end of the film and tries to put her life back together. Running parallel is a series of flashbacks from Charlie's POV and what drove him to become Jill's accomplice, rather piecemeal in how they’re revealed.
Who is the candidate and what do they do?
Jill Roberts is, As You Know, the Big Bad of Scream 4, the mastermind behind the killing spree depicted in that film.
In Chapter 13, it's revealed that Charlie was an orphan who was adopted by Mr. and Mrs. Walker a few years after their son Kris died. The circumstances of Kris' death are revealed as well: Mr. Walker sexually abused Kris until the latter killed himself and continued the same behavior with Charlie, with Mrs. Walker as a Secret-Keeper.
So how does that connect back with Jill? When she started to plan her killing spree, she needed an accomplice and she found one in Charlie, who was, as one can imagine, emotionally unstable from the abuse he suffered at his father's hands. In him Jill found a willing partner, one she could manipulate with false affection and sex. Jill also promised Charlie revenge on his adoptive parents for their abuse, but for Jill, she had no intention of filling her end of that bargain; it was all a lie to string him along. She even tells Charlie to allow his adoptive father to abuse him again the night of the Stabathon. For example Chapter 16 opens with Jill and Charlie waiting outside of Jenny Randall's house and before donning their Ghostface costumes and murdering Marnie and Jenny before having sex in Charlie’s car. When they leave after killing Marnie and Jenny, Charlie ruminates on not wanting to hurt Kirby, but that Jill was the only one who loved him and that Marnie and Jenny deserved to die for ignoring him, showing the depth to which she warped him even further than his adoptive father had.
Freudian Excuse or Mitigating Circumstances?
No Freudian Excuse; Jill's messed up, she knows it, and doesn't care. Mitigating Circumstances? The fanfic doesn't really add anything to Jill's crimes onscreen, it primarily adds a how element to the story by expanding on how she manipulated Charlie into becoming her accomplice through a combination of sex, desire and affection that he couldn't find with anyone else.
Heinousness?
Most openly psychopathic and second-highest body count in the franchise, which included killing her accomplice. Not even Roman did that.
Verdict?
Up to you guys.
Edited by k410ren on Mar 4th 2021 at 11:17:58 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Hmm... well that does raise an interesting question in that does really getting into the depth of how cruel a particular manipulation was merit giving a character a different entry? Personally I've gotta lean no as all it alters is her conversations with Charlie and we already know she's a Manipulative Bitch but that is a nasty twist and I think this is a neat discussion to have.
Mir and I are watching the High Republic stuff, but we can share some.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Agreed. I don't think it's distinct enough.
Edited by Lightysnake on Mar 4th 2021 at 8:39:12 AM
Goku Black
Yep it's own era. Plenty to go around. Though Their is one guy on mb I'm interested in doing myself assuming he makes the landing.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
jill
Edited by miraculous on Mar 4th 2021 at 8:56:59 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Based on the EP, I also gotta unfortunately say to that version of Jill.
If she was shown to kill more people, then maybe. Otherwise, it’s just filling in blanks.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 4th 2021 at 8:51:46 AM
Yeah, to Jill Roberts
The Draftsman of Doom
Jill
Does anyone have problems seeing this image
? (It’s supposed to be the page image for The Upside-Down Man
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Fuck, Why can I never get pictures right?
Edited by nwotyzal on Mar 4th 2021 at 9:15:38 AM
The Moron
Can't see it.
No to Jill.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Here you go
. Notice how it ends with the "jpg/"?
Goku Black
I can't see it.
No to Jill.
The wifi here sucks
byoutiful
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Upside Down Man image.
to Jill Roberts.
Time for a potential cut discussion. I wanted to thank GeorgieEnkoom for allowing me to discuss this work and to 43110 for helping me along this process. I've been wanting to throw the idea of cutting this candidate for some time, frankly because of its...worrying implications.
I'm referring to Shukra/Lahamu from Infernal Tales A Helltaker Story. In the chapter describing her past, she gets molested by a group of guards during her childhood and there's a lot of gross detail put into it, but I'll avoid saying it to preserve my dignity and adhere to No Lewdness, No Prudishness. Despite this potential Freudian Excuse, the only reason why she counted was because she bluntly stated as an adult that it didn't affect her at all.
I was uncomfortable to see her go up because it felt pretty offensive to depict a child molestation victim in such a way. It was just wrong and tasteless to throw out all of the mental trauma and effects that can come from such a crime in favor of portraying a character as a pure evil rapist who flatly states that the molestation didn't affect her at all. There's no legitimate or narrative reason given as to why she wasn't affected by it; the character was depicted as pure evil just for the sake of it. I refrained from proposing a cut earlier because I never encountered this type of situation and held off on it.
However, I recently contacted 43110 about this and he concurred with how offensive this depiction is and should be cut on the grounds of poor taste, akin to how a character who is a blatantly racist caricature would be cut for being too offensive. While I am personally for cutting this candidate, I'm still unsure if the rest of the thread shares me and 43110's thinking, so I think this warrants at least a good discussion on what precedent to set with this kind of keeper.
Edited by DrUnknown on Mar 4th 2021 at 10:58:02 AM
Yes, cut it, burn the ground and salt the Earth... making this character a Complete Monster was a revolting choice on the author's part even if we're not purging the site of their work. Utterly disgusting.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Ugh, cut her and never look back.
Thanks Unknown for bringing this up to us.
"No running in the halls!"
To phrase it in the kindest way I possibly could,
That’s just disgusting.
Cut it with a passion
Edited by nwotyzal on Mar 4th 2021 at 11:10:04 AM
Goku Black
Cut and don't look back.....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Like with The Last Airbender depends on what mood your in.![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."